Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

Spiritually dead refers to being able to connect with God on a spiritual level, not physical one!

 

What gets born again in us then, and are we really sinners under judgement?

 

Before Salvation yes but after Salvation no We are never under sin again because we cannot sin. Why? Because the saved wear the righteousness of Christ. You see I believe that eternal life is eternal. This means it cannot ever be changed or shortened.
MB

 

You still don't understand. Being spiritually dead means nothing more than being separated from God. If you want to believe that a spiritually dead man cannot speak to God or understand His gospel and you believe that ADAM died spiritually then you need to deal with Adam and Cain speaking with God after they sinned. Because you also believe that a dead man cannot speak to God to ask if He would save a spiritually dead man
MB.

 

This one is interesting, it caught my attention.

 

First of all, I suggest that you define what it is to be a "Calvinist",
because many people on this forum tend to pin that label on others, not realizing that many of the ones they call "Calvinists" have never really read John Calvin...

And if they have, they don't subscribe to all of the things that he may have taught.
They read the Bible and decide for themselves what to believe.
They do not take their cues from John Calvin.

For the purposes of discussion, I think we might agree that those you label "Calvinists" would all hold to what is called "TULIP" as a brief summary of how they view salvation being accomplished.

Secondly,
Where do these ideas of "logic" and reason come from?

I can understand the word "reason"...
It means to sit down and talk to one another.

But "logic"?
Is that another way of saying "man's wisdom" done man's way?

No it would not, at least not to me.
Why?

Scripture nowhere states that the Holy Spirit indwelt him, nor did it depart him.
If you can find one, post it...I'll be glad to take a look at it.

 

I am not aware of any place in the Bible that states that the Lord Jesus ever stopped knowing His Father.
As far as I know, the Lord Jesus only died physically on the cross.
He then rose again the 3rd day according to the Scriptures.

The Spirit of God never did leave Him alone.
If you have a passage that shows it, please list where the Lord Jesus ever stopped knowing God the Father.

Spiritual death is much more than that.
But in the interests of proving it, let's start first with this question:

What is it to be alive in Christ?
What is life, spiritually?

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:2-3 ).

There's the answer from God's word itself...

Life is to know God, spiritually.
Where does that knowledge start?

" The fear of the Lord [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." ( Proverbs 1:7 )

 

As I understand it, here is spiritual death described from the Scriptures...
Not only is it a lack of knowing God, is it this:

" because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." ( Romans 1:21 ).

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

There it is...

1) Vain imaginations ( 2 Corinthians 10:5 ).
2) Having the understanding darkened, from God's point of view.
3) Being alienated ( separated ) from the life of God through ignorance.
4) being blind in our hearts towards God.
5) Being past feeling and giving ourselves over into lusts and to sin with greediness.

Those that you call "Calvinists" do not teach that we as men cannot reason, think and believe things.

Respectfully, I suggest that instead of stating your opinion, I think you might actually ask what it is that they see the Bible teaching.
From my own perspective, and since you'd probably call me a "Calvinist", I can tell you that in all honesty, I do not believe that mankind are robots...
Unable to reason and think and believe things.

I think that even unbelieving men and women can and do make willful decisions every day.
But given the definition of death as found in the Scriptures, please explain to me what would make a person who has had their mind darkened by sin and vanity and has not known God, to suddenly turn around and seek Him.

 

I have a question or two or three

KJV Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. - What does that mean? ------------------------- With what?

YLT John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. - What does that mean?
YLT John 16:7 'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;


YLT & I took out the words in italic 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
YLT Matt 27:46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'
YLT Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. - Talk to me a little about the Anointed.

YLT Matt 3:16 (1) And having been baptized, Jesus (2) went up immediately from the water, and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw (3) the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him, and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying,(4) 'This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.'

!, Does this picture the death of Jesus?
2. Does this picture Jesus being made alive, 1 Peter 3:18 quickened in the Spirit, resurrection? The last Adam.
3. ? What does this picture?
4. Does this picture, Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee?

YLT Acts 2: 'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'
YLT Acts 13:33 God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee.

More,
for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings, 1 Cor 15:3,4
V 17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; - If Christ be not risen out of the dead your sins have not been washed away in his blood.

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, Rev 1:5 - A bathing of regeneration

(not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 YLT
V 6 which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour,

Again Acts 2:32.33 'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;

 

It is hard to reason about something when the basic FACTS have not been established.
You have not demonstrated that both men (Jesus and Adam) "had the Spirit of God dwelling in their physical bodies", so I "know" no such thing and everything that follows based on point number 4 is a house of cards built on a foundation of sand.

I suggest starting by defining "the Spirit of God", which could be as simple as "God breathed breath" into Adam to as profound as the Second person of the Trinity (Jesus) was indwelt by the Third person of the Trinity (the Holy Spirit). Those two statement are NOT equivalent and it is dishonest to treat them as equivalent events as an apriori assumption.

 

really? and what Bible text tells you that? Have you read what the Apostle John says?

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:8-10)

This is written to born-again Christians, who AFTER they were saved, were still struggling with their personal sins.

 

There is far too much unbiblical stuff in the OP to even begin to address. It is obvious that the person this belongs to does not understand basic Bible "theology".

 

WRONG!

Isaiah 59:2, "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"


SIN does separate any born-again Christian from the Holy God of the Bible, which is why we have to "confess our sins", daily.

 

Do you sin? if so you are under the Law. Those who are saved are not under the Law. Not to mention
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I believe in OSAS Salvation is for eternal life. What part of eternal don't you understand. Eternity has no ending it never stops it just keeps on going. I believe it is you who wants to place us back under the Law. Of course we commit the acts of sin yet it is not counted against us.

Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Otherwise in 1st Jn 3:9 condemns us all the first time we sin and everyone sins even you. One thing for certain your still under the Law what makes you think you can live up to the Law. I do not believe fpr a minute that you can. You mis read my post which is why you didn't post all of it and this shows dishonesty. Think about it
MB

 

sadly the English versions do not correctly render the Greek, "πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου αμαρτιαν ου ποιει"

The verb "ποιει", is the present participle, as in "habitual sinning", does not have a "life-style" of sinning. 1 John 1:8-10 clears this up and responds to you.

New Living Translation
Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

New International Version
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

New American Standard Bible
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

You are wrong this verse below come from the YLT The first time I quoted it was from the KJV.
1Jn 3:9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

This is a word for word translation and is accurate. I see you don't use the KJV maybe you should it's accuracy is much better than the ones you have quoted from.
Do me a favor don't falsely accuse me again.
By the way I'm not in the least impressed by you hokie pokie with you translating from the Greek I doubt you know even a small percentage of what you want people to think.

MB

 

What disability results from being "made sinners" as a consequence of the Adam choosing to eat the forbidden fruit. We were conceived in iniquity. (Psalms 51:5) Our iniquities have causes a separation from God. (Isaiah 59:2) Can we do anything that would cause us to be saved? Nope, Romans 9:16. Does our "sinful state of separation" result in us being unable to will to be saved or attempt to earn God's favor through works? Nope, Romans 9:16