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Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

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J

JD731

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Apparently I wouldn't understand since I am a Calvinist. ;)

However, the OP defined it for me to use in asking my question:


Since the bible used the EXACT same word for "died" when talking about Adam died and when the frogs died, I was just questioning the theological ramifications of the definition of "death" in the OP.

For what it is worth, I agree with YOUR reading of Genesis 3 over the OP. :Thumbsup
Click to expand...

Thanks for helping with my point. A frog can die but a frog cannot die spiritually because a frog does not have spiritual life. He has a soul but it is not eternal like that of a man. The frog is alive as long as his soul and body are together. To have spiritual life one must have the Spirit. Only two men in the OT had spiritual life and that was Adam and our Lord Jesus. One sinned and died spiritually and the other did not sin, though he died, but not for his own sin but for the sins of others. Adam was not "sealed" in righteousness as we are now through Christ. We have an eternal advocate according to 1 john 1 and 2 whose sacrifice has propitiated God, the offended party and confession to him will keep us in fellowship with him because we are his born again sons. If you do not think you can define spiritual death by the Spirit being absent the body please explain these two verses I give you here.

1 Pet 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He was dead until he was quickened.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus Christ was dead for three days and was alive again when the Spirit entered into his body. This is spiritual life. If you deny this tell me plainly.

A Calvinist and a so called Armenian are both dead in their sins spiritually and they got this condition from Adam. The remedy for this condition is "Life," which God gives to all men who will receive it. They must get this life from God and it is possible for all men because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ took sin away and appeased the anger of God against sinners. He has been reconciled to sinners by the payment of sin by his own Son. Now, sinners can be and must be reconciled to God by the same agent, Jesus Christ and his death. I am not reconciled to God because I am prechosen in the misty past eternity, but because I heard that God had provided the way for me to to be reconciled to him through Jesus Christ and I believed it. The promise of God is at stake here if you say that doesn't work. You are asking me to believe you over him. The Spirit who gives life is pictured as life giving water from above. As the water of the flood that rose so deep that it was over every ones heads and destroyed them all, this water of life is poured out from heaven by God so deep that he is over everyone's head and is life for the whole world. This is a contrasting type given in the scriptures and is like this contrasting type stated as follows. As in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

The Bible is a spiritual book and many of you men are like the Israelites of old. It was said of them in the Hebrews when they would not enter into the rest of God, salvation, that they did not know the ways of God. Isa 55 says his ways are above our ways and his thoughts are above our thoughts. You men are missing most of God's truths by being blinded by these non sensical additions to the word of God.
 
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Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
Whether they were created or not created is not the point. The point is that both these men were said to be in the image of God in the OT and they were said to be the son of God. No other person in the OT could claim this. All men in the NT who trust in Jesus Christ are said to be sons of God. What is the difference in these two men in the OT and all other men in the OT? Two things are different. They have the indwelling Spirit of God in their bodies. This makes them like God in that they are a trinity. Trinity means three in one and one in three. As a trinity, all these 3 parts of a man can be separated and yet they are still the same man. These three parts are the soul, the body, and the Spirit for these two men. Sin was the agency that separated them both from God. When they are separated the result is called death. Since the Spirit is the breath of God and also a person, a member of the Godhead, he gives the man his divine nature and a relationship with God. The second thing that makes them different from all other is that they are totally in tune with God and are at one with him. The body of Adam was more than likely a glorified body like the body of our Lord when he rose from the dead. There is no sin to block the fellowship with God. Then Adam sinned and died spiritually. This means the Spirit of God, who is a person, departed from him. The image of God is now marred in Adam and he is a two part man. Here is what God says about his children;

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

In other words, Seth was not like God, he was like his father, Adam. This did not mean he was a sinner when he was born but it did mean he was a two part man. He was a body and a soul. Now, instead of being led by the Spirit of God he was guided by his conscience, which made him aware of good and evil but was not infallible and did not give him the power to overcome his lusts that leads to sin. Sin leads to death. The scriptures tell us that to him that knows to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Paul says in Rom 7 that he has a desire to do right but how to perform it he finds not. Because of this all men sin. Sin then is the cause of he separation of God and man. Take sin away and God and man can be reconciled and be as one. John the Baptist said of Jesus Christ, behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. Speaking of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:26 says in part, “but now once in the end of the would hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Because of this Paul was able to say in 2 Cor 5 these wonderful words.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ,
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This means that Adam’s race can be at one again with God because sin has been dealt with through death and resurrection. To be reconciled to God means to have his life in you. Reconciliation is a two way proposition.

This post is getting too long and there is more to know. My op is about death and how Calvinism misrepresents it.
Click to expand...
Adam was JUST a created human, Jesus was human and also God!
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
Thanks for helping with my point. A frog can die but a frog cannot die spiritually because a frog does not have spiritual life. He has a soul but it is not eternal like that of a man. The frog is alive as long as his soul and body are together. To have spiritual life one must have the Spirit. Only two men in the OT had spiritual life and that was Adam and our Lord Jesus. One sinned and died spiritually and the other did not sin, though he died, but not for his own sin but for the sins of others. Adam was not "sealed" in righteousness as we are now through Christ. We have an eternal advocate according to 1 john 1 and 2 whose sacrifice has propitiated God, the offended party and confession to him will keep us in fellowship with him because we are his born again sons. If you do not think you can define spiritual death by the Spirit being absent the body please explain these two verses I give you here.

1 Pet 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He was dead until he was quickened.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus Christ was dead for three days and was alive again when the Spirit entered into his body. This is spiritual life. If you deny this tell me plainly.

A Calvinist and a so called Armenian are both dead in their sins spiritually and they got this condition from Adam. The remedy for this condition is "Life," which God gives to all men who will receive it. They must get this life from God and it is possible for all men because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ took sin away and appeased the anger of God against sinners. He has been reconciled to sinners by the payment of sin by his own Son. Now, sinners can be and must be reconciled to God by the same agent, Jesus Christ and his death. I am not reconciled to God because I am prechosen in the misty past eternity, but because I heard that God had provided the way for me to to be reconciled to him through Jesus Christ and I believed it. The promise of God is at stake here if you say that doesn't work. You are asking me to believe you over him. The Spirit who gives life is pictured as life giving water from above. As the water of the flood that rose so deep that it was over every ones heads and destroyed them all, this water of life is poured out from heaven by God so deep that he is over everyone's head and is life for the whole world. This is a contrasting type given in the scriptures and is like this contrasting type stated as follows. As in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

The Bible is a spiritual book and many of you men are like the Israelites of old. It was said of them in the Hebrews when they would not enter into the rest of God, salvation, that they did not know the ways of God. Isa 55 says his ways are above our ways and his thoughts are above our thoughts. You men are missing most of God's truths by being blinded by these non sensical additions to the word of God.
Click to expand...
Is Jesus God?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
Your verse says Adam sinned it does not say he fell. I already know he sinned this does not mean he fell. If in fact he did fall from where and to where did he fall?
MB
Click to expand...
He changed to not being afraid of God, to realizing was now a sinner and was very afraid to face God!
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
Your verse says Adam sinned it does not say he fell. I already know he sinned this does not mean he fell. If in fact he did fall from where and to where did he fall?
MB
Click to expand...
From sinless immortal to sinful mortal.
If you can't figure that one out......
It's like the "Trinity."
My verse? I didn't write it.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
He changed to not being afraid of God, to realizing was now a sinner and was very afraid to face God!
Click to expand...
That is not falling this is called changing. By the way he was not spiritually dead. because he still spoke to God even after being put out of the Garden.
MB
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
That is not falling this is called changing. By the way he was not spiritually dead. because he still spoke to God even after being put out of the Garden.
MB
Click to expand...
Show me a verse that says a Spiritually dead man can not talk to God.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
That is not falling this is called changing. By the way he was not spiritually dead. because he still spoke to God even after being put out of the Garden.
MB
Click to expand...
he needed to be clothed and to have a savior due to now fallen away from God!
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
From sinless immortal to sinful mortal.
If you can't figure that one out......
It's like the "Trinity."
My verse? I didn't write it.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean but your terminology doesn't fit what actually happened by saying he fell. Satan fell from heaven, Adam sinned. Adam was put out of the garden but even though he sinned he could still speak with God. Adam was not spiritually dead. why?
MB
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
Show me a verse that says a Spiritually dead man can not talk to God.
Click to expand...
It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood.
MB
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MB said:
No it's not a Joke. If Adam fell you should be able to prove it with scripture alone.
MB
Click to expand...
You know good and well the fall is what we call the sin of Adam. He fell from his state of innocence. And yes, you CAN prove that from Scripture alone. Sola Scriptura does not mean the words have to be there. Otherwise we would have to deny the Trinity.
 
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