Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

[Reformed1689]

Your verse says Adam sinned it does not say he fell. I already know he sinned this does not mean he fell. If in fact he did fall from where and to where did he fall?
MB

You know good and well that is what is meant by the fall.

 

[Reformed1689]

It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood.
MB

Actually it is the Bible that claims that.

 

[Yeshua1]

We are not born sinners we are born in sin.I believe this means a sinful world we are born in to.
MB

We have sin natures, as from the womb born apart from God!

 

[Yeshua1]

I know what you mean but your terminology doesn't fit what actually happened by saying he fell. Satan fell from heaven, Adam sinned. Adam was put out of the garden but even though he sinned he could still speak with God. Adam was not spiritually dead. why?
MB

Why did he now need a savior then?

 

[Yeshua1]

It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood.
MB

No, means that spiritual dead cannot understand the things of the Lord!

 

[Reynolds]

It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood.
MB

They claim no such thing. They claim man can not come to a saving knowledge.

 

[Yeshua1]

They claim no such thing. They claim man can not come to a saving knowledge.

One can hear and read the Bible and see that Jesus is claiming to be God on earth, can tell others what he claimed to be and what he did, but by ourselves cannot know Him as our Lord.

 

[Reynolds]

One can hear and read the Bible and see that Jesus is claiming to be God on earth, can tell others what he claimed to be and what he did, but by ourselves cannot know Him as our Lord.

I agree.

 

[JD731]

Is Jesus God?

I noticed in your description that you are a Baptist and it made me wonder why a Baptist would need to ask this question, but yes, Jesus is God.

 

[JD731]

Death and life of the two scriptural Adams are in reverse order.

Adam was created a living soul with the emphasis on living
He had a glorified body
His soul and the Spirit of God was present in his body
He sinned
The Spirit of God departed = spiritual death
He lived the remainder of his life with his soul only in his body.The glory of his body was gone and he was ravished by time
In 930 years he died physically
His body and his soul were separated = physical death
The body decayed and went back to the dust from which it came
The soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
The soul and the body is awaiting the resurrection by the power of the Spirit of God who will glorify the body and indwell it.


The last Adam was born of God
He was the express image of God Heb 1:3
He was made bodily as Abraham Heb 2:12 weak bodily
The Spirit of God and his soul were present in his body
He never sinned but sin was placed upon him by his own will
He satisfied God’s perfect justice by becoming sin personified and enduring God’s wrath against him
He died spiritually as Adam did, The Spirit departed from his body at 12 o’cLock noon
At three o’clock he died physically when his soul departed his body and his body was left lifeless
His body was taken off the tree and buried in a borrowed tomb but it did not suffer decay. This fact is a theme of the preaching of the apostles in Acts
His soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
The Spirit went back to God who gave it
The three parts of the man, Christ Jesus, were separated for 3 days
On the third day the Spirit of God “quickened” the body of Jesus Christ and glorified it.
His soul entered into his body and there was no blood in it because the Spirit is the life of the glorified body
This three part image, one in three and three in one yet one is renewed and is a new birth
Sin had been taken away and dealt with on behalf of Adams race and reconciliation between the two parties was now achievable.
God had come to all men through Jesus Christ and now all men could come to God through Jesus Christ
Those who would come to God through Jesus Christ would be given the Spirit of God and would be in his image, a three part man.
Two part men coming to God in the name of Jesus Christ and becoming a three part man when the Spirit is given to them
When Jesus Christ was risen from the dead it is said he was the “the firstborn” Son of God from the dead. The phrase from the dead is key.
Adam was the head of a race or family of 2 part men and Jesus Christ is the head of a race or a family of 3 part men.
In either case there must be a birth into the family.
The promise for all who have experienced the second birth and have the Spirit present in their mortal bodies is that at a certain predetermined time known only to the Father he will come and glorify the body so the son may enter his inheritance which is in heaven. This is called the blessed hope
No blood in this new body, the Spirit is the life.

There is much to know and I have not been exhaustive on what I have given you but consider this passage I am going to post with the truths I have written.


Romans 8:28-3
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now read what he said just before he said the above.

Romans 8:14-28
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Calvinists should re-evaluate their doctrines of life and death. Two part men born of Adam are dead spiritually and have no power in them to keep them from sinning. He must be born again.

 

[MB]

You know good and well the fall is what we call the sin of Adam. He fell from his state of innocence. And yes, you CAN prove that from Scripture alone. Sola Scriptura does not mean the words have to be there. Otherwise we would have to deny the Trinity.

David
if the words aren't there then it isn't so
MB

 

[MB]

That is actually an Ephesians 2 claim.

You didn't answer the question. This is the question:
"It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood."
What about Adam and Cain? How is it they could speak to God but we can't?
MB

 

[MB]

Show me a verse that says a Spiritually dead man can not talk to God.

It's not my doctrine it's a Calvinist doctrine. When I was suppose to be spiritually dead I spoke to God before I was saved. Other wise I would not have been saved. It's sort of a Judgement that Calvinist place on us this thing about being spiritually dead. You can't be saved unless you are saved first. You see being made alive according to Calvinist is regeneration not Salvation. You have to be regenerated in order to believe. IOW"s regeneration doesn't mean what the dictionary says it means. It means Salvation.
MB

 

[MB]

he needed to be clothed and to have a savior due to now fallen away from God!

There is one thing I know for sure. Adam was not Spiritually dead he could not have been if in fact he was spiritually dead because of sin. The reason I know this is that Calvinist have told me you cannot talk to God when you are dead spiritually. They swear by it. Yet Adam did. There fore Adam was not dead spiritually. neither was Cain.
MB

 

[MB]

You know good and well that is what is meant by the fall.

Then why don't Calvinist say what they mean. Adam didn't fall.Adam sinned. But no Calvinist have to take it to another level insanity Unless of course you fell the last time you sinned. Adam did not die spiritually when he sinned either. He spoke to God after he sinned so did Cain. I'll tel you why. It's because Adam was not dead after he sinned. Calvinist claim we inherited what happened to Adam because of his sin and it's a bologna sandwich.
MB

 

[Reynolds]

It's not my doctrine it's a Calvinist doctrine. When I was suppose to be spiritually dead I spoke to God before I was saved. Other wise I would not have been saved. It's sort of a Judgement that Calvinist place on us this thing about being spiritually dead. You can't be saved unless you are saved first. You see being made alive according to Calvinist is regeneration not Salvation. You have to be regenerated in order to believe. IOW"s regeneration doesn't mean what the dictionary says it means. It means Salvation.
MB

It's not Calvinists doctrine. It's the doctrine of some Calvinists, but not Calvinist doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

Death and life of the two scriptural Adams are in reverse order.

Adam was created a living soul with the emphasis on living
He had a glorified body
His soul and the Spirit of God was present in his body
He sinned
The Spirit of God departed = spiritual death
He lived the remainder of his life with his soul only in his body.The glory of his body was gone and he was ravished by time
In 930 years he died physically
His body and his soul were separated = physical death
The body decayed and went back to the dust from which it came
The soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
The soul and the body is awaiting the resurrection by the power of the Spirit of God who will glorify the body and indwell it.


The last Adam was born of God
He was the express image of God Heb 1:3
He was made bodily as Abraham Heb 2:12 weak bodily
The Spirit of God and his soul were present in his body
He never sinned but sin was placed upon him by his own will
He satisfied God’s perfect justice by becoming sin personified and enduring God’s wrath against him
He died spiritually as Adam did, The Spirit departed from his body at 12 o’cLock noon
At three o’clock he died physically when his soul departed his body and his body was left lifeless
His body was taken off the tree and buried in a borrowed tomb but it did not suffer decay. This fact is a theme of the preaching of the apostles in Acts
His soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
The Spirit went back to God who gave it
The three parts of the man, Christ Jesus, were separated for 3 days
On the third day the Spirit of God “quickened” the body of Jesus Christ and glorified it.
His soul entered into his body and there was no blood in it because the Spirit is the life of the glorified body
This three part image, one in three and three in one yet one is renewed and is a new birth
Sin had been taken away and dealt with on behalf of Adams race and reconciliation between the two parties was now achievable.
God had come to all men through Jesus Christ and now all men could come to God through Jesus Christ
Those who would come to God through Jesus Christ would be given the Spirit of God and would be in his image, a three part man.
Two part men coming to God in the name of Jesus Christ and becoming a three part man when the Spirit is given to them
When Jesus Christ was risen from the dead it is said he was the “the firstborn” Son of God from the dead. The phrase from the dead is key.
Adam was the head of a race or family of 2 part men and Jesus Christ is the head of a race or a family of 3 part men.
In either case there must be a birth into the family.
The promise for all who have experienced the second birth and have the Spirit present in their mortal bodies is that at a certain predetermined time known only to the Father he will come and glorify the body so the son may enter his inheritance which is in heaven. This is called the blessed hope
No blood in this new body, the Spirit is the life.

There is much to know and I have not been exhaustive on what I have given you but consider this passage I am going to post with the truths I have written.


Romans 8:28-3
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now read what he said just before he said the above.

Romans 8:14-28
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Calvinists should re-evaluate their doctrines of life and death. Two part men born of Adam are dead spiritually and have no power in them to keep them from sinning. He must be born again.

That is why asked you if Jesus was God, as God could NEVER experience a spiritual death, as in needing to be born again from being a sinner!

 

[Yeshua1]

You didn't answer the question. This is the question:
"It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood."
What about Adam and Cain? How is it they could speak to God but we can't?
MB

We Calvinists agree that being spiritually dead does not mean physically deaf and dumb!

 

[Yeshua1]

Then why don't Calvinist say what they mean. Adam didn't fall.Adam sinned. But no Calvinist have to take it to another level insanity Unless of course you fell the last time you sinned. Adam did not die spiritually when he sinned either. He spoke to God after he sinned so did Cain. I'll tel you why. It's because Adam was not dead after he sinned. Calvinist claim we inherited what happened to Adam because of his sin and it's a bologna sandwich.
MB

Spiritually dead does not mean that the sinner cannot hear from God, nor know about God, as one can quote the bible and tell all about who jesus was and what he did and said, and still be lost !

 

[Yeshua1]

It's not my doctrine it's a Calvinist doctrine. When I was suppose to be spiritually dead I spoke to God before I was saved. Other wise I would not have been saved. It's sort of a Judgement that Calvinist place on us this thing about being spiritually dead. You can't be saved unless you are saved first. You see being made alive according to Calvinist is regeneration not Salvation. You have to be regenerated in order to believe. IOW"s regeneration doesn't mean what the dictionary says it means. It means Salvation.
MB

God needs to have us get regenerated by Himself, and then we can get saved!