Does God Have Libertarian Free Will?

[Steven Yeadon]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will? A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires? All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

 

[Quantrill]

God alone has 'free will'. His will is not affected by anything or anyone outside of Himself.

God's attributes cannot be brought in conflict with Himself. He cannot cease to be God.

For example, the old atheistic question, 'Can God make a rock so big He can't carry it?'. It's an attempt to bring God in conflict with Himself. The only answer is God can make a rock as big as He wants to, and He can carry any rock He makes.

I don't understand your statement, "He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?" The past is as much a part of God's work as the future is. Both are always in agreement with His will and attributes. To suggest God may change the future, from what He has given us to know already about the future in the past, is dangerous ground. To suggest that, means you have no assurance for your eternal life.

Man's choices have no impact on God's choices. Man's choices do have impact on man.

Quantrill

 

[Steven Yeadon]

God alone has 'free will'. His will is not affected by anything or anyone outside of Himself.

God's attributes cannot be brought in conflict with Himself. He cannot cease to be God.

For example, the old atheistic question, 'Can God make a rock so big He can't carry it?'. It's an attempt to bring God in conflict with Himself. The only answer is God can make a rock as big as He wants to, and He can carry any rock He makes.

I don't understand your statement, "He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?" The past is as much a part of God's work as the future is. Both are always in agreement with His will and attributes. To suggest God may change the future, from what He has given us to know already about the future in the past, is dangerous ground. To suggest that, means you have no assurance for your eternal life.

Man's choices have no impact on God's choices. Man's choices do have impact on man.

Quantrill

As to the part you had trouble with, I am asking if God is bound, where as CS Lewis posited, there is only one possible universe all along. Or is God free to choose possible futures as long as it does not violate what He has revealed to us?

 

[Quantrill]

As to the part you had trouble with, I am asking if God is bound, where as CS Lewis posited, there is only one possible universe all along. Or is God free to choose possible futures as long as it does not violate what He has revealed to us?

You're going to have to give an example, a scenario, of what you mean.

Are you talking about in the beginning when God first set everything in motion? Or, are you talking about like right now, that God decides to go another direction?

Quantrill

 

[canadyjd]

Peace to you

 

[atpollard]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will?

No. Libertarian free will, by definition, means that God is free to choose to act good or evil with no restriction on His choice. For example, a god with libertine free will could lie or tell the truth as it pleased him at that moment.

God is not free to act contrary to His nature (which both IS good and is the yardstick that DEFINES good), so God cannot choose to lie. To paraphrase Paul in Romans, God is a "slave to righteousness" because He is incapable of acting any other way. God cannot be "evil" and continue to be God ... it becomes a self-contradiction like a "married bachelor".

 

[atpollard]

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

This is more speculative, but to borrow from Schrodinger's Cat ...

... God can create an infinite number of possible "realities" in "eternity past" as He is making His plans, but once God selects a plan and sets that plan in motion ("In the beginning, God said ..." = open the box containing Schrodinger's Cat), all of the possibilities collapse except for the one reality ... from eternity past to eternity future ... that God has selected as His plan.

The philosophical issue is as follows:

• Is God's plan perfect? (YES)
  
• Can you change something "perfect" without making it less than perfect? (NO. Perfection cannot be improved, it can only be made less than perfect.)
  
• If some change will improve "God's plan" then the original plan was less than perfect, so any change can only harm God's perfect plan. (This is potentially a Logical fallacy, since it is possible that there are multiple "perfect" options, but that gets us into another level of abstract and further from your question.)

 

[Dave G]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will?

From what I see in the Scriptures, His will is in perfect accordance with what He has revealed.

A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires?

Again, it is in accordance with what is revealed.
In other words, what He has told us pertaining to how He views the affairs of men and how He rules over His creation, is the way that He will always act and be.

All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Yes.

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

Again, as I understand the Scriptures developing, He chooses to confine Himself to certain events with regard to certain subjects.
For example, if something is prophesied to happen and is revealed to chosen men that it will happen, then He will make sure that it does.

From my perspective, this is composed of a combination of man's actions and His actions that are involved in a terribly complicated dynamic, which results in all things working according to the counsel of His will.
God not only over rules the desires of men according to His wishes, He can and does actually put things in the hearts of men in order for that will to be accomplished.
Example:
" For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." ( Revelation 17:17 ).

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

Not according to Daniel 4:35 and many others, as I see it.
I see the Scriptures teaching that God's will is immutable, and that the only ones who can "get Him to change His mind" are His children.

But even then, I see those occurrences as all acting in accordance with His will, in that He had already planned for the outcome...
What He determines will come to pass, even though to us, we are acting independently of our own volition.

Therefore, we as men are not robots with pre-programming;
Rather, we carry out our wishes as sinful men unless the Lord has something that he wants done.
But ultimately, our choices do not have any impact on His choices.

Most people seem to find this offensive, and the cry goes out, "Hands off, God! I don't want you messing with my will. My will be done, not yours!"

However,
God is not a God who idly sits by and waits for us as men to make decisions...
I see the Scriptures detailing that He has a plan, and He carries out the details of that plan whether or not we "like it".

 

[Reynolds]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will? A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires? All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

That's a fancy way of asking "Can God create a rock so heavy He can not pick it up?".

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Thank you all for such a number of thoughtful responses. I ask because God seems to many to have determined His every interaction with humanity through the eternal state from eternity. I see this with both Arminians and Calvinists. However, that strikes me as less than sovereign.

You're going to have to give an example, a scenario, of what you mean.

Are you talking about in the beginning when God first set everything in motion? Or, are you talking about like right now, that God decides to go another direction?

Quantrill

Let's split it to two questions. Did God from eternity past have real choice in the future He crafted? The alternative being there is only one possible reality, the one we are living.

Did God confine Himself to one possible reality upon creating the creation. In short, could history read differently? Could His interactions with humanity have multiple possibilities after the creation?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

No. Libertarian free will, by definition, means that God is free to choose to act good or evil with no restriction on His choice. For example, a god with libertine free will could lie or tell the truth as it pleased him at that moment.

God is not free to act contrary to His nature (which both IS good and is the yardstick that DEFINES good), so God cannot choose to lie. To paraphrase Paul in Romans, God is a "slave to righteousness" because He is incapable of acting any other way. God cannot be "evil" and continue to be God ... it becomes a self-contradiction like a "married bachelor".

Of course, I messed up. Libertarian Free Will is a poor word choice. God does not violate His character.

 

[Dave G]

Did God from eternity past have real choice in the future He crafted?

" And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
35 and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:34-35 ).

" But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).

" Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).

I'd say, "yes".

Did God confine Himself to one possible reality upon creating the creation. In short, could history read differently? Could His interactions with humanity have multiple possibilities after the creation?

I've heard from many sources, some even being professing Christians, that there is a multiplicity of possibilities to how things could have and will turn out...
I was even taught this as a very young believer in some Baptist churches.

I see nowhere in the Scriptures that this is ever declared;
Rather, I see the complete opposite:

" having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" ( Ephesians 1:9 )

" in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" ( Ephesians 1:11 ).

I see that everything, no matter how it looks, will turn out as He has determined.
But what is determined includes all the choices of men who make self-determined decisions.

I also realize that that does not make sense to many who read this, so I'll clarify:

The way I see it, God's will includes a dynamic that is so complicated, that only He could affect it.
It includes man's free will decisions ( both under sin and freed from it ), and incorporates them into His decisions.
He also influences the hearts and minds of men, saved and unsaved alike.


But, at the end of the day, God is sovereign and man is fully responsible.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

" And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
35 and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:34-35 ).

" But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).

" Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).

I'd say, "yes".

I totally agree. I will need more time to ponder the second half of you're reply.

 

[Yeshua1]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will? A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires? All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

He ALONE has that kind of will , and He can do anything that is consistent with his nature and His Attributes!

 

[Quantrill]

Thank you all for such a number of thoughtful responses. I ask because God seems to many to have determined His every interaction with humanity through the eternal state from eternity. I see this with both Arminians and Calvinists. However, that strikes me as less than sovereign.



Let's split it to two questions. Did God from eternity past have real choice in the future He crafted? The alternative being there is only one possible reality, the one we are living.

Did God confine Himself to one possible reality upon creating the creation. In short, could history read differently? Could His interactions with humanity have multiple possibilities after the creation?

I think you are looking for answers where God hasn't given any. God reveals Himself. If He doesn't reveal Himself, we don't know anything about Him. I think your question goes to a (Deut. 29:29) file.

I will say this, and this is just an opinion. Your use of 'choice' with God bothers me. God doesn't need 'real choice'. He does His will. You use 'choice' in a way that makes something outside of God provoking Him to choose one way or another. So, perhaps I lean to there being only one way, God's way.

The same with your use of 'confine'. God is not confined. The way you use that word seems to indicate He may want to do something else but He is confined to do only this. Doesn't have a good ring to it.

Again, (Deut. 29:29)

Quantrill

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I think you are looking for answers where God hasn't given any. God reveals Himself. If He doesn't reveal Himself, we don't know anything about Him. I think your question goes to a (Deut. 29:29) file.

I will say this, and this is just an opinion. Your use of 'choice' with God bothers me. God doesn't need 'real choice'. He does His will. You use 'choice' in a way that makes something outside of God provoking Him to choose one way or another. So, perhaps I lean to there being only one way, God's way.

The same with your use of 'confine'. God is not confined. The way you use that word seems to indicate He may want to do something else but He is confined to do only this. Doesn't have a good ring to it.

Again, (Deut. 29:29)

Quantrill

I see where you are coming from. IMO people can present God, especially in circles I grew up in in the Roman Catholic Church, as having no freedom to do all that pleases Him from eternity past. That there is one way, not God's way, but the way dictated by His nature, as if the attributes of God are His God.

Then again, I agree on this being too theoretical a discussion. Deuteronomy 29:29 was a great verse to use.

 

[JonC]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will? A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires? All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

I would have to say "no" only because this is kinda like asking if God can create a round square. Libertarian free-will is a hypothetical completely uninfluenced will. The problem with the discussion is it always bases itself on human will and the constraints our nature places on our will. For consistency we would have to place God in that same formula (rather than God's nature being an expression of God it would have to be viewed as having an influence upon God).

Here is how I'd expound:

The reason those who say man has free-will is because man can make free choices within man's own nature.
The reason those who say man does not have free-will is because man cannot act outside of his own nature (is bound by his nature).

If free-will means man acts in according to his nature then God has free-will because God acts in accord to His nature.

If free-will means that man is able to act outside of his nature then neither God nor man has free-will because man is not inherently righteous and God cannot sin.

It's nothing but a philosophical shell game.

 

[SGO]

I am pretty sure there is some scripture about this but I don't even know how to frame a search.

Since God is omniscient wouldn't it be possible to think that He went through ALL the possible scenarios of existence before He chose this one?
So in the verses that say He changed His mind, wouldn't He have known that would have happened as it turned out before it happened?

The golden vials are FILLED with the prayers of His saints so He knew about those too, right?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I am pretty sure there is some scripture about this but I don't even know how to frame a search.

Since God is omniscient wouldn't it be possible to think that He went through ALL the possible scenarios of existence before He chose this one?
So in the verses that say He changed His mind, wouldn't He have known that would have happened as it turned out before it happened?

The golden vials are FILLED with the prayers of His saints so He knew about those too, right?

Thinking about it, this scripture comes to mind,

Psalms 139:6
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

Maybe, I'm looking at something the svriptures aren't 100% clear on.

 

[SGO]

Thinking about it, this scripture comes to mind,

Psalms 139:6
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.


Great scripture quote.


Maybe, I'm looking at something the svriptures aren't 100% clear on.

How about:
"Ask and it shall be given unto you;
seek and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
Matthew 7:7

Sorry for the inside post.