Calvinism and Unbelieving Loved Ones

[Barry Johnson]

No one is attracted to any spiritual truth without God’s intervention in their life.

Harm to believers and unbelievers? “Easy believing” does great harm to all people.

Jesus said “many” would stand before God in the day of judgment thinking they would be allowed entry into heaven only to be told, “depart from Me,”... Until that moment, they believed they were saved. Why? Because they were looking to their good works, rather than their relationship with God, to ensure salvation.

What could be more harmful than to give someone a false sense of salvation?

Peace to you

If All 5 points of Calvinism are false , which I believe they are , how major is this problem? its pretty huge. Calvinism is not a harmless alternative within christianity by that standard . Its an attack on Christianity by that standard .

 

[Steven Yeadon]

From your perspective?
I agree.

In other words, Steven, when compared to where you're at "theologically", I realize that to you, I look to be in error.
Does that mean that my understanding of the Scriptures is ultimately wrong?

We'll see.
But please keep in mind that if anyone understands it properly, I believe that to also be a gift of God in His grace and mercy to someone...and ultimately, even the proper understanding of His word is therefore a gift and will abase us as men at His feet.

Nevertheless, as the Lord is the Judge of all of us, it will all come out in that Day and every mouth will be stopped.


That said,
What I'm not going to do is to adopt a position that so many I have seen take, and that is this:
Many today, when questioned deeply, will outright tell you that God's word cannot be known and understood completely, given much study of it, by someone who is saved...
But I can honestly assure you that it can.
Otherwise, the Lord would not have had Paul tell Timothy this:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

If Scripture cannot be understood by those to whom it is written, then to me, we as believers in Jesus Christ should simply fold up our tents and forget His promises.
I won't settle for that, my friend.

That's why even after 42 years as a believer, I continue to seek Him through His word and through His promises.
In fact, there is hardly a day that goes by that He doesn't reveal something to me in His word more deeply than I was aware of the day before.

I agree with your sentiment. I'm still asking, seeking, and knocking because there is an answer and I will get there. I simply was trying to convince you that you may need to ask, seek, and knock more on this matter yourself. That's all. God Speaks to me in His Word too, though I am far younger in this than you are. It is good to hear God still speaks so powerfully to you.

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Steven Yeadon :

About loved ones:
One thing I've discovered the hard way, is this...

To the lost ( who think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), anything in the Bible is not going to make sense and will be rejected out of hand because it comes from God.
It took me a long time to see it, but I eventually realized that none of what's in there is for them anyway...
It's for me and and others like me:

Believers in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who lived and died for them.

If you haven't discovered yet how different you are from your fellow man ( friends, neighbors and relatives ), you will soon.
You will experience persecution for being His, and you will experience more of it, especially if you live a godly life.
This next part isn't meant to scare you, but to strengthen you for what I know is going to come in your life as a believer in this present world:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).


I don't like that last part, but I've learned to accept that it comes with the territory.
I also know that the Lord loves me, and I have nothing to fear from Him or from men...
For who or what shall separate me from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 )?

He is our helper, Steven, not men.

With all that said,
I too pray for those who are not believers to see the things that I have, and to have hope after this life.
To cast themselves upon a God who loves them and sent His Son to give them the gift of eternal life, which is to know Him and His Son.
As a "Calvinist", my compassion for those who do not believe is not diminished just because I understand what's behind a person being saved.

I still want to see people come to Christ.

persecution comes when we preach grace . Salvation exclusively through' one way ' ( Jesus alone and faith alone and not through works . The world will be comfortable with , piety , legalism, and a form religiosity.

 

[Craig Hooker]

Calvinism does great harm to Believers and unbelievers. If it is the case that all 5 points of Calvinism are false, and i believe they are , then its completely unnecessary for christianity . Only harm can come from it . No one could be attracted to it as an unbeliever ,and in my opinion I've personally seen the damage its done to geniune believers / churches/ families ect .Otherwise gentile characters become hardened and apathetic to the lost , legalistic ect .
Calvinists of course ,once inside , do not see themselves change ,or see how Calvinism represents God or the lost . You can only see the issue ( clearly) once you come out from the system .

Harm to believers and unbelievers? Such as? What's a gentile character?

 

[Dave G]

That I know too well. I am completely different form the man I was five years ago. I became a Christian four years ago. I am ignored and really mocked by many unbelievers I know. I have gone through several churches already. Each one was out of sync with the Word in a major way. They were foolish to me and were unwilling to turn on Modernity, Western culture, secular America, and so many other groups in the world. I have been through agony for years at a time. Things got no better as a Christian, but I take heart and sing when alone. I sing thanks to God for suffering for Him in some way for I know Satan is my tormentor in illness.

I will pray for you my friend... that the Lord bless you with better health, and that His Spirit help your infirmities ( Romans 8:26 ).

Sir, I will need to share with you how I was saved. It would be good to have another crack at it. It will explain how almost absurd your statement is to me. Envying me is to envy Esau (my old man) and Job.

Point taken, but that's not why I said that I almost envy you.

The reason I said that, was because as a young believer, I was a frightful mess...
And my faith in God's love for me ( and especially my love for Him ) was considerably smaller than yours seems to be.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Harm to believers and unbelievers? Such as? What's a gentile character?

If you looked at another denomination within christianity and you concluded that ALL of its major Doctrines were false, wouldn't you at best think its1) man made at best 2), not of God at worst ,or 3) even from the enemy himself? whichever one you conclude , maybe its just 1 out of 3 ,you would ( i assume ) believe that this is harmful to both believers and unbelievers. That it would absolutely affect the Gospel and the truths of the bible?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I will pray for you my friend... that the Lord bless you with better health, and that His Spirit help your infirmities ( Romans 8:26 ).

Thank you very much for your prayers.

 

[canadyjd]

If All 5 points of Calvinism are false , which I believe they are , how major is this problem? its pretty huge. Calvinism is not a harmless alternative within christianity by that standard . Its an attack on Christianity by that standard .

What harm is caused by the doctrines of grace?

What harm is caused by believing people are unable/have no desire to seek the things of God unless God Holy Spirit draws them?

What harm is caused by believing God choses who will be saved and then brings each and every person chosen to salvation?

What harm is caused by believing Jesus died specifically for, and made atonement for, those God has chosen for salvation?

What harm is caused by believing God is sovereign in salvation from start to finish?

Peace to you

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If All 5 points of Calvinism are false , which I believe they are , how major is this problem? its pretty huge. Calvinism is not a harmless alternative within christianity by that standard . Its an attack on Christianity by that standard .

What harm is caused by the doctrines of grace?

What harm is caused by believing people are unable/have no desire to seek the things of God unless God Holy Spirit draws them?

What harm is caused by believing God choses who will be saved and then brings each and every person chosen to salvation?

What harm is caused by believing Jesus died specifically for, and made atonement for, those God has chosen for salvation?

What harm is caused by believing God is sovereign in salvation from start to finish?

Peace to you

Can you two please take this debate to another thread? I would prefer to stay on topic.

 

[Alan Gross]

I think you have made a very good point when you mention unbelievers embracing Calvinism IF it were the only theology presented to them when they came to faith. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (not Calvinism or non-Calvinism). It seems that people move around after they are saved but when they are first saved stick with the group they were with when first saved, at least for awhile.

I have many friends who lost and became saved in a Calvinistic church with a Calvinistic faith. Some are still Calvinists and other's have moved on.

In regards to children of Calvinists, I think they tend to be Calvinists because they are often presented a Covenantal doctrine that extends from their saved parents to themselves as children. They grow up Calvinists just as a child in a Baptist church grows up Baptist (or Methodist, Catholic, etc.).

We all deserve Hell, and none of us know who the elect are of God, so keep praying and witnessing until you die or they do!

Yeshua1, few words could be more True and urgent, like those you've stated.

"We all deserve Hell, and none of us know who the elect are of God,
so keep praying and witnessing until you die or they do!"

 

[canadyjd]

Can you two please take this debate to another thread? I would prefer to stay on topic.

Brother, in the very first sentence of your OP you stated “Calvinism seems cruel” to the redeemed.

What seems “cruel” about the doctrines of grace?

What is “cruel” about the belief people are unable/have no desire for the things of God unless God Holy Spirit intervenes in their lives?

What seems “cruel” about God choosing who will be saved and then brings each and every one of those folks to salvation?

What is “cruel”about Jesus dying specifically for those people whom God has chosen and bringing to salvation?

What is “cruel” about God being sovereign in salvation from start to finish?

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Steven Yeadon,

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed.

I have never met any Calvinist who thinks any such thing. Every Calvinist quickly comes to understand The Holy attributes of God.
They trust His Godly wisdom and Holy omniscience.
Understanding God has a perfect plan and purpose in saving a multitude in His Son is a great mercy. I trust what the scripture declares;
Gen.18:25
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless,

This kind of statement is unbelief and suggests a distrust of God, who is perfect. You do not want to go there, do you?

because God chose different to me from eternity.

How do you pretend to know who God has chosen?
We are to use the means God has instructed us to use, prayer, preaching. teaching, serving, and leave the results to God.
He is going to save everyone He has intended to save.2Pet 3:9
He is not willing that any of those He has decreed destined and purposed will be lost.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen."

Keep studying scripture. I do not know if in a short 4 years you could get a handle on the teaching. You have to challenge each verse before you can own it.

It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom

.
It cannot be done because it is a thread that goes through all of scripture.

I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism,

Natural men cannot welcome Divine truth,,,they cannot do it.

unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

No..that is not how truth is welcomed

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Brother, in the very first sentence of your OP you stated “Calvinism seems cruel” to the redeemed.

What seems “cruel” about the doctrines of grace?

What is “cruel” about the belief people are unable/have no desire for the things of God unless God Holy Spirit intervenes in their lives?

What seems “cruel” about God choosing who will be saved and then brings each and every one of those folks to salvation?

What is “cruel”about Jesus dying specifically for those people whom God has chosen and bringing to salvation?

What is “cruel” about God being sovereign in salvation from start to finish?

peace to you

Brother, you missed my point in the OP. I asked the question because of the state of my loved ones. I see now it was a cry of pain. Most people have explained why Calvinism is yet right and good despite my cry of pain. Many thoughtful reasons have been given. I do not want to debate theology, but instead hear why I'm wrong.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven Yeadon,



I have never met any Calvinist who thinks any such thing. Every Calvinist quickly comes to understand The Holy attributes of God.
They trust His Godly wisdom and Holy omniscience.
Understanding God has a perfect plan and purpose in saving a multitude in His Son is a great mercy. I trust what the scripture declares;
Gen.18:25
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?



This kind of statement is unbelief and suggests a distrust of God, who is perfect. You do not want to go there, do you?



How do you pretend to know who God has chosen?
We are to use the means God has instructed us to use, prayer, preaching. teaching, serving, and leave the results to God.
He is going to save everyone He has intended to save.2Pet 3:9
He is not willing that any of those He has decreed destined and purposed will be lost.



Keep studying scripture. I do not know if in a short 4 years you could get a handle on the teaching. You have to challenge each verse before you can own it.

.
It cannot be done because it is a thread that goes through all of scripture.



Natural men cannot welcome Divine truth,,,they cannot do it.



No..that is not how truth is welcomed

Thank you for an honest reply.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for an honest reply.

Steven,
No matter what position you hold, never lose sight of the attributes of God, first and foremost.
God and all His attributes are perfect in Holiness.
If you read any person or quote that tries to blame God, or even sound like it, run away from it fast.

Take your time, work through the words and teaching offered.
If you want to know what Calvinists believe, ask them, not others who try and pose as former Cals.

 

[canadyjd]

Brother, you missed my point in the OP. I asked the question because of the state of my loved ones. I see now it was a cry of pain. Most people have explained why Calvinism is yet right and good despite my cry of pain. Many thoughtful reasons have been given. I do not want to debate theology, but instead hear why I'm wrong.

You made a statement that Calvinism seemed cruel. I only asked for explanation of why?

If you don’t want to explain what you meant and don’t want to debate, then I’ll withdraw and let you get on with whatever point you are trying to make.

peace to you

 

[InTheLight]

You made a statement that Calvinism seemed cruel. I only asked for explanation of why?

If you don’t want to explain what you meant and don’t want to debate, then I’ll withdraw and let you get on with whatever point you are trying to make.

peace to you

It's right there in the second sentence of the OP. You people can read, no?

Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

Why should Christians have a burden for the lost, pray endless prayers years after years for loved ones to repent and believe and become Christians if all of their efforts are wasted because God had not chosen them for salvation?

Imagine a Calvinist praying to God for their lost mother.

"Dear God, I pray that you have not condemned my mother to an eternity in Hell. I pray that it was your will before the world was created to select my mother for salvation. I hope that all my witnessing and living a Christ-like life is not empty when it comes to my mom's salvation. Please Lord, I pray that her name had been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world and no matter what I do, she will be saved. I know I should have spoken up the other day when she asked about You, but, well, you know if she's saved or not so it really doesn't matter what I do. The outcome for her has been predetermined."

 

[Iconoclast]

It's right there in the second sentence of the OP. You people can read, no?



Why should Christians have a burden for the lost, pray endless prayers years after years for loved ones to repent and believe and become Christians if all of their efforts are wasted because God had not chosen them for salvation?

Imagine a Calvinist praying to God for their lost mother.

"Dear God, I pray that you have not condemned my mother to an eternity in Hell. I pray that it was your will before the world was created to select my mother for salvation. I hope that all my witnessing and living a Christ-like life is not empty when it comes to my mom's salvation. Please Lord, I pray that her name had been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world and no matter what I do, she will be saved. I know I should have spoken up the other day when she asked about You, but, well, you know if she's saved or not so it really doesn't matter what I do. The outcome for her has been predetermined."

Showing that after all this time you have no idea of the teaching and suggest God is at fault for having a plan.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I will pray for you my friend... that the Lord bless you with better health, and that His Spirit help your infirmities ( Romans 8:26 ).

Point taken, but that's not why I said that I almost envy you.

The reason I said that, was because as a young believer, I was a frightful mess...
And my faith in God's love for me ( and especially my love for Him ) was considerably smaller than yours seems to be.

This is my Testimony Dave. I hope it helps you to hear in some way.

In middle school and high school I was a Deist. I believed that a God existed but one that conformed to modern science. I later in college identified as an atheist because I was angry at God. I knew He existed, but as the scriptures say, I would not give Him thanks or honor. I became futile in my speculations as a result and my foolish heart was darkened. I became an American political liberal supporting abortion and so many other evils. Why was I so angry at God? I saw my life as painful due to illnesses that at that time were mostly undiagnosed. I made pain my God, because a Creator who let me and others suffer for what I deemed no good reason did not deserve to be God, to me.

In the summer of 2004, I was engaging my Christian friends on their faith. I was given and read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which gave me the idea the Christian faith was reasonable, even sublime. I decided I wanted to get to know this seemingly close knit society of believers guarding an important truth. I started to go to a Baptist church with my dad on Sunday.

Around this time Hurricane Charley was just off the Florida coast, projected to hit Tampa. In an act of pure uncaring pride, I made a prayer I didn't think would be answered to test God. I asked Him for hurricane Charley to hit Orlando, because I wanted to experience a direct hit from a hurricane. I saw it as a novel, once in a lifetime experience.

Terrifyingly, the hurricane changed course within hours of my prayer, and it passed over Orlando on my birthday of August 14th. I was dumbstruck, and I knew I had met God at last. In guilt for praying for such a thing and having it happen, my dark heart sought to work off my guilt. I volunteered to help a church evacuate someone from their house that was heavily damaged by hurricane Charley. On the way back home, I wrestled with becoming a Christian, but I could not do it. I needed proof, I thought. For to me, faith was wrong compared to reason. I needed evidence, and I would not embrace an ounce of blind faith for any reason, even if it was in Jesus Christ Who loved me and died for me. In a feeling beyond horror, on the way home, I asked God for two more hurricanes to hit Orlando that hurricane season. If that happened I knew to be a Christian. My prayer was answered when Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne smashing into Central Florida that hurricane season.

However, I did not have faith in Jesus Christ. I was following the evidence instead. This would prove my downfall. I did start reading the bible in earnest in this time period. Yet, I could not understand it clearly. I read what I wanted into the bible all the time.

Having been given something no other person in history can claim to have had. God sending three hurricanes to hit a city due to prayer. I then immediately go astray. I wrestle with whether it is the Christian religion or some other religion that is true. After studying the world religions, I determined that only the Christian or Jewish depiction of God allowed for a personal Being willing to answer prayers that controlled the weather. I rejected Judaism out of hand, since I found God in the Old Testament to be a terrible person without the New Testament teachings. I was Modern and Western with my thinking. I did not see Yahweh and His Law as what they are: good, righteous, and holy (Romans 7:12). I in the end created two ideas of God in my head, one a New Testament loving God and the other a wrathful and terrible, and to me barbaric, Old Testament God. Shortly after this decision that the Christian God gave me three hurricanes, I get baptized a Christian without having any real faith or knowing Who God really is.

After this I go to a Southern Baptist church as a Moderate Baptist who believed women should be pastors. I believed that modern sensibilities must override a few bible verses. I also become a Charismatic Christian, lured into reading Charismatic books about miracles, exorcisms, healings, and prophecy. It seemed so exciting! I soon spend time reading these books over my bible. I would even search for prophecies and attempt to hear form God. I began to think of myself as a prophet once I start to have "visions and dreams." I would even occasionally deliver "powerful prophecies."

That said, for two years I would grow more and more ill. I graduate college in Spring 2007. Soon after I become terribly ill and go through some of the most tormenting experiences of my life. I would spend two years in hell. I would suffer unspeakable pain beyond description every single day for a year. This was before the normal and quite unexpected sufferings life brings, some of which I experienced on top of my agony. I would get a little better in 2009, but I was still in episodes of tormenting pain almost every day.

Despite my suffering, I was determined to work and become great from my work. I spend a year at a private and expensive music college, since I wanted to be a professional singer. However, I was no virtuoso and I was counseled that music degrees made you a starving artist unless you are a top singer or have a niche. I would leave and decide to go to seminary feeling "called" by God to be a theologian. I spent three years studying to be a pastor, teacher, and theologian at a liberal Christian seminary. I stop[ going to a Baptist church and get involved in the Charismatic End Times cult called the International House of Prayer Kansas City. I start going to church at an affiliate in Orlando. I was truly Lost.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

However, in the summer of 2013, God literally speaks to me to warn me. While trying to hear the voice of God, a voice started to talk to me. I was told that I would read about his Rose. He told me I would be wrestling with “how did she do it,” in the future. He said that should he not avenge himself for one like Rose? The voice then went on to argue that I lacked salvation. I was against suffering in faith, proving I had none. My gut reaction was to argue that since I had faith in Jesus Christ, I deserved heaven. I told the voice it was the devil himself. In scoffing pride, I asked for proof that this voice was God and it gave me a number of predictions of the future that all came true.

Four examples were that I would have almost exactly three years of terrible illness again. This came true. A second was that a terrorist founded caliphate in the Middle East would arise in Syria and Iraq by a terrorist organization called ISIS. This came true a few months later. A third prediction, that I did not remember until it happened a few months after my salvation, was that Donald Trump would be elected president in 2016. A fourth, that I just didn’t remember until it all came back to me in January was that a disease called Coronavirus would happen, that would wreak havoc on the economy. I remembered this one the second I heard the news about the Coronavirus in China. At the time, I distrusted the predictions. I even laughed at them. I was not convinced, since it all sounded far fetched.

Yet, God confirmed by the world swirling all around me that it was He that talked to me. A false prophet finally met God to find out the grim truth: I was going to hell if I did not trust in Jesus Christ as my savior and repent. Shortly thereafter, as a result of a change to my treatment, I became very sick again and would stay that way until June 2016. I spent 3 years in agony. During a period of recovery three years later, I bought a used copy of the book Jesus Freaks at a Good Will, and I was convicted by the stories of martyrs for Jesus, including a young woman named Rose Allin Mount. I was shocked to read about her. I especially struggled with how she was willing to be tortured and brutally murdered with such meekness. When I read about Rose three years later and realized it was her, I was prompted to terror. I must suffer and even die for my faith if others already have. God is impartial and will be my Judge. If Rose will be avenged, I must never do anything that incurs God’s wrath in relation to a woman like Rose, such as be cowardly and lukewarm. When Rose was brave and willing to die for her faith.

At first, I felt convicted to read the bible slowly and carefully to study and apply it. I found it a Herculean task to take the precepts of God’s Word to heart with my actions. However, while reading, I was struck by the reality of the resurrection of the dead and the Day of Judgment while reading 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and Revelation 20:10 through 21:8. I knew that I would face Jesus one day and be Judged by Him. I began to feel a tremendous conviction concerning my sins. I became terrified of death, because I intellectually figured I was going to the Lake of Burning Sulfur when I died. I believed this, because I knew that I had lived a life given over to sin that was completely outside God's will for me. After thinking about it, I realized I was feeling terrified of God. If I persisted in doing wrong, I knew my eternal fate at His command. I went on to become terrified of dying. However, I was not willing to admit with 100% certainty that I was going to hell. I could not imagine God doing so to me, because after such a hard life, I thought I deserved heaven.

A whole month of terrified obstinance later, I was on the way home from a family dinner. I felt convicted to stop pretending that I didn't have doubts about Christianity. I let my doubts finally crash in. I concluded in the presence of such doubt that I could not support believing in Jesus Christ and His Father on evidence of three hurricanes in 2004. Knowing at last what the problem was, I had to admit the truth in me for years, I never had real faith. I had coasted on the evidence given to me. I immediately thought of Romans 10:9 which states “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.“ I already considered Jesus my Lord and God, and I had confessed it openly for years. However, I had done so in a half-hearted and incorrect way. This was something I was already repenting of at this point, but I knew it alone would not save me. I knew my real problem from my days as an atheist.

So, in fear of God and His Day of Judgment, I decided to believe with all my heart, on certainty without sight, that Jesus rose from the dead and that the bible was true. Upon doing so I felt great light inside me. My feelings changed instantly from what felt like great darkness to great light. This happened on June 14th, 2016. Shockingly, the following days showed my internal world to be changed: Many sins I wrestled with hardly bothered me at all anymore, my mind became far more sober, I no longer felt great darkness in me all the time, I wanted to earnestly live a holy life and separate myself from unholy things, I became much better at fighting my temptations, I lost most of the embarrassment I felt when sharing Jesus to others, I found it possible to follow the commands of the Bible that I had found impossible to live up to, and my mental health also improved. I finally accepted the Gospel message on faith, and I would live it out for real this time.

Since then, I have been in periods of great pain, sometimes tormenting, but I suffer for Jesus now. Knowing the devil is my tormentor through illness. It feels Satan has targeted my faith for four years, but thank God! It only gets stronger! I cannot wait for my reward!