Barry, how many lies do you intend on sharing.
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What Is Reformed Theology?
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Jacob + Calvin + Beza = Calminian
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The "Christian Faith" that you are flabbergasted about
is one where sin DOES NOT SEPARATE MAN from GOD.
Christ is not in 'us' in the Person of The Holy Spirit unless a soul is Saved.
That lost soul is dead and going to Hell, with no Hope,
unless God Saves them by an Act of His Will.
That is How God Says He Saves lost souls that would Go to Hell, otherwise.
And that offends you.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Jesus Only Died for the sins of His people. Matthew 1:21.
from: His By Grace--What are the "Doctrines of Grace"?
At issue here is the reason why the cross of Christ does not save everyone.
"Those who do not savingly believe in Christ will suffer eternal punishment and will never be reconciled to God.
"Why does the cross not save all?
"Is it because God has limited power in the cross or because God has a limited purpose for the cross?
"Did God intend to save everyone through the cross and fail, or did He plan to save only a limited number through the cross and succeed?
"Our position is the latter.
"We believe that God had a limited design or purpose in the atonement and that the cross of Christ saves everyone God intended it to save.
"We believe this because God never fails to carry out His plans. If God had intended the cross to save everyone, then everyone would be saved through it. What God has planned, that He will do (Isaiah 46:9-11; 55:11; Daniel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11).
"We believe this because the Bible teaches that Jesus came to accomplish a real and saving salvation for His people. He did more for them than provide a mere possibility of salvation. See Matthew 1:21; 26:28; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 5:25-26; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 2:17; and Revelation 5:9.
"We believe this because the Bible says that God will give everything, including saving faith, to those for whom He delivered up His Son to die (Romans 8:32). If we were reconciled to God at the cross, then we will be saved (Romans 5:10).
'Through His work on the cross, Christ provided for the deliverance of His people from the spirit of unbelief and purchased for them the gift of saving faith.
"We believe this because the Bible teaches that the Good Shepherd laid down His life for His sheep (John 10:11) but no where teaches that the Good Shepherd in like manner laid down His life for those who are not His sheep (John 10:26). Christ's sheep are those whom the Father has given Him (John 10:29), and they manifest themselves through their faith and obedience;
that is, they in faith recognize Jesus as the Messianic Good Shepherd and listen to His voice and in obedience follow Him (John 10:3-4, 27). Christ died for the sheep, and all the sheep will savingly believe. Christ died for those whom the Father gave Him, and all these will come to Christ and none of them will be lost (John 6:37,39).
"Those who are not Christ's sheep manifest themselves through their moral inability to believe (John 10:26).
"We believe this because Christ as the high priest prayed only for those whom the Father had given Him (John 17:9).
"If Christ had offered up His life as a priestly sacrifice for everybody, then why did He not also offer up His priestly prayer for everybody?
"We believe this because it would not be just for God to require double payment for sin.
"If Christ died equally for the sins of all men, then those who go to hell will be paying for their sins themselves even though their sins have already been paid for once through the sufferings of Christ.
"We believe this because the Bible speaks of individuals for whose sins there was never to be any atoning sacrifice (1 Samuel 3:14; Isaiah 22:14; Hebrews 10:26; cf. Jeremiah 18:23).
"This doctrine does not deny that the cross has infinite saving potential. It teaches that the cross could save everyone if God had only intended it to do so.
".... The doctrine of limited atonement is simply that the cross of Christ provides a sure, secure and real salvation for everyone God intended it to save and for them alone."
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The atonement does not ' save ' . So we need to start there and figure out what saves . ( please resist the urge to say " Jesus saves ) Also there is a lot of assumptions in what you say there . Let's start at ' what saves?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Your not too bright are you?
I have no idea what the above means.
I read the Bible. I know what this means:
Romans 8:24-25,27-39 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God has provided me with grace and a discerning spirit so that I know you are false teaching.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Calvinists make it easier . If they come out and admit they are a Calvinist. That's all I need to know to discern a false gospel .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
You missed out the point of the preceding verses ? why ? ' For in this hope we were saved.' What hope ? why did you miss out verse 23 ? That will tell you what we are predestined to and when . Which is also the point of when we are conformed.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I’ll bite ... “What saves?”
I personally lean towards “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” [Ephesians 2:8-9] and “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” [Romans 10:9-10]
You'd make it easier if you come out and admit being wrong. You have failed to address God's word and instead fall on your crutch as the means by which you reject what God teaches. Keep falling on Calvin as your excuse. I can see you are holding a false doctrine that preaches law instead of grace.
Sure, let's look at what God tells us before verse 24.
Romans 8:1-23
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
There we go. Present and future. Thanks for reading God's word.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Point of information: You're means "you are." Your means your (as in it belongs to you). No comment on the "brightness" or "dimness" of such comments or commentators is intended.
The Archangel
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
So God saves a person, After they Believe. By our faith , through faith . Faith is the prerequisite?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
So through the new birth we become sons . Then we wait for the adoption which is the redemption of the body . Simple . No one is adopted at conversion . God is not operating with a western, American idea of adoption. We recieve the Gurantee , which is the Spirit OF adoption ( SPIRIT OF ) not THE ADOPTION. Thats what we are predestined to AFTER we believe.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Then ....
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
eph 1 .
Notice above ,this happens AFTER we believe. None of this happened 2000 years ago on the cross .
atpollard
Well-Known Member
"God saves a person"
I agree.
"After they Believe."
You are assuming facts not in evidence. Neither of the verses that I presented claim "after they believe". You will need to provide evidence for YOUR claims.
"By our faith"
Both I and Paul disagree. Ephesians 2 specifically states"saved through faith; and that not of yourselves", which agrees with the earlier claim in Ephesians 2 "even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive".
"through faith."
I agree ... "you have been saved through faith" [Ephesians 2:8]
"Faith is the prerequisite?"
Unlikely, but that is the question we are trying to answer at your suggestion. You have made two potentially false assumptions in the question itself. The first is the word "THE" in "the prerequisite" which assumes that there can only be one prerequisite for salvation. Faith could merely be "a" prerequisite, as in one of several. The second flaw in the question is the "pre-" in "prerequisite" which implies that faith is either required before salvation or not at all. Faith could be a "co-requisite" for salvation since the Ordo Salutis is only a "logical" order of events and not a temporal order of events. If you will remember the book of Acts, some people were baptized in water and then received the Holy Spirit while others received the Holy Spirit and were then baptized with water.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
It takes radical theological brain washing to miss the order in Eph 1.13-14 .
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