What Is Reformed Theology?

[atpollard]

It takes radical theological brain washing to miss the order in Eph 1.13-14 .

Which neither you nor I had posted to exegete, so I stand by my claim that you were stating facts that were not in evidence.

 

[Alan Gross]

The atonement does not ' save ' . So we need to start there and figure out what saves . ( please resist the urge to say " Jesus saves ) Also there is a lot of assumptions in what you say there . Let's start at ' what saves?

The atonement does not ' save ' . So we need to start there and figure out what saves . ( please resist the urge to say " Jesus saves ) Also there is a lot of assumptions in what you say there . Let's start at ' what saves?

Jesus is The Savior.

So, before you get started, I would like to say that Jesus is The Savior.

My ministry is based on, "Jesus is The Savior".

By having, "Jesus is The Savior", as my Subject matter, all other topics and issues regarding a presumed 'way of salvation', etc., immediately identify themselves as, "another Gospel".

Counting beads, for example, is another gospel.

Selling flowers is another gospel.

"and thy house", is another gospel.

So, 'the atonement made it possible for everyone to be saved', is another gospel.

You can't handle, "Jesus is The Savior", nor Limited Atonement.

...

You have tried to say that, "Its God's will and it PLEASES him to save all those who believe him . simple" and are saying, A.) people believe and then, B.) God's Will is Pleased to save them.

Your premise is from the John verses, etc., as if the John verses stating, "believe", means "to give consent" (It never does) and that there has Been a Work Done by The Triune Godhead that Makes their "consent" applicable to The Eternal Plan of Salvation through the Infinitely Giving Grace of God (and there hasn't been a Work like that Done by The Triune Godhead).

"Believe" always means to "Trust" in those verses with , Conviction of Sin and Repentance, implied, prior to "believe", or "trust", in order to, "have Faith in The Message of Jesus".

I hope you are not going to leave out, "sin", "sin separates man from God", and "Jesus is The Savior", in your attempt to skip, "they shall call His Name Jesus, for He shall Save His people from their sins" Matthew 1:21.

I guess you sort of won't.

You'll say Jesus died for everyone and nothing separates them from God except a whim and The Bible should be one page, saying, "How about it? Heaven? or Hell?"

However: The Teaching of The Bible is:

The Atonement of Jesus Christ was Limited to His people.

Jesus is The Savior.

The Birth of Jesus

…20 "But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

21 "She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.

22 "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:…"

 

[AustinC]

It takes radical theological brain washing to miss the order in Eph 1.13-14 .

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Barry, where were you brainwashed? Care to share your testimony?

 

[MB]

God has provided me with grace and a discerning spirit so that I know you are false teaching.

I do not believe you have a discerning spirit. The doctrine you claim is not scriptural.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Barry, where were you brainwashed? Care to share your testimony?

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
see it ?

 

[AustinC]

So through the new birth we become sons . Then we wait for the adoption which is the redemption of the body . Simple . No one is adopted at conversion . God is not operating with a western, American idea of adoption. We recieve the Gurantee , which is the Spirit OF adoption ( SPIRIT OF ) not THE ADOPTION. Thats what we are predestined to AFTER we believe.

Your first sentence is very, very important.
When Jesus makes us alive with Christ we are sons. That does not mean I live in my Father's house with all my brother's and sister's. I am an exile in a foreign land.
But, I am still adopted. How do I know? Because I am a son, just as you correctly note.
Where you struggle is that you think our adoption is not real until we are received in our Father's house. Yet, the reality is, we were adopted before the foundation of the world. We were made alive with Christ while on earth. Our union with our Father, who adopted us, is in the future.

All of this is expressed in scripture. It has been presented to you. Yet, you fight against it. You imagine that our homecoming is the only predestination involved, when our very existence is predestined.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Barry, where were you brainwashed? Care to share your testimony?

There is no testimony in Calvinism. Just " i woke up one day ,a Calvinist " .

 

[atpollard]

Notice above ,this happens AFTER we believe.

Only in that particular translation. See “Young’s Literal Translation” for comparison ...

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. - [Ephesians 1:13-14 YLT]​

Notice that a more literal translation places both “hearing the word” and “believing” as co-requisites for being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

[NKJV] 13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Notice the “;” in the NKJV that separates two statements.

• Trusted after heard
• Believed before Holy Spirit
• There is no information on the relationship order between the first statement and the second.

[NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

Two separate sentences, no implied order.

I could go on with translation after translation and find the same thing. Your statement ...

It takes radical theological brain washing to miss the order in Eph 1.13-14 .

... seems dishonest considering you see relationships where most translators do not. What happens AFTER we believe is that we receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance.

I can agree with that. I do not think that unbelievers receive indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guarantee their salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your first sentence is very, very important.
When Jesus makes us alive with Christ we are sons. That does not mean I live in my Father's house with all my brother's and sister's. I am an exile in a foreign land.
But, I am still adopted. How do I know? Because I am a son, just as you correctly note.
Where you struggle is that you think our adoption is not real until we are received in our Father's house. Yet, the reality is, we were adopted before the foundation of the world. We were made alive with Christ while on earth. Our union with our Father, who adopted us, is in the future.

All of this is expressed in scripture. It has been presented to you. Yet, you fight against it. You imagine that our homecoming is the only predestination involved, when our very existence is predestined.

Rom 8.23 say s we are waiting for the Adoption.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Only in that particular translation. See “Young’s Literal Translation” for comparison ...

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. - [Ephesians 1:13-14 YLT]​

Notice that a more literal translation places both “hearing the word” and “believing” as co-requisites for being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

[NKJV] 13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Notice the “;” in the NKJV that separates two statements.

• Trusted after heard
• Believed before Holy Spirit
• There is no information on the relationship order between the first statement and the second.

[NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

Two separate sentences, no implied order.

I could go on with translation after translation and find the same thing. Your statement ...


... seems dishonest considering you see relationships where most translators do not. What happens AFTER we believe is that we receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance.

I can agree with that. I do not think that unbelievers receive indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guarantee their salvation.

It says AFTER . So if a unbeliever eventually believes AFTER he will be sealed by the Holy Spirit . Christianity 101 .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Only in that particular translation. See “Young’s Literal Translation” for comparison ...

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. - [Ephesians 1:13-14 YLT]​

Notice that a more literal translation places both “hearing the word” and “believing” as co-requisites for being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

[NKJV] 13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Notice the “;” in the NKJV that separates two statements.

• Trusted after heard
• Believed before Holy Spirit
• There is no information on the relationship order between the first statement and the second.

[NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

Two separate sentences, no implied order.

I could go on with translation after translation and find the same thing. Your statement ...


... seems dishonest considering you see relationships where most translators do not. What happens AFTER we believe is that we receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance.

I can agree with that. I do not think that unbelievers receive indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guarantee their salvation.

Calvinsm = clever philosophical reasons for why the bible is not true .

 

[atpollard]

Calvinsm = clever philosophical reasons for why the bible is not true .

You think too highly of yourself. It is your interpretation that I question. Your interpretation is not “the Bible”, so we can safely claim that the Bible is true and your “twisted opinions“ are not.

 

[MB]

You think too highly of yourself. It is your interpretation that I question. Your interpretation is not “the Bible”, so we can safely claim that the Bible is true and your “twisted opinions“ are not.

Here you claiming superiority. Actually Barry has given you the the bible it self, it's not an interpretation like yours. There is nothing in Calvinism that is Biblical. It's just bits and peaces mix with philosophy. IOW'S it's a dud.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your first sentence is very, very important.
When Jesus makes us alive with Christ we are sons. That does not mean I live in my Father's house with all my brother's and sister's. I am an exile in a foreign land.
But, I am still adopted. How do I know? Because I am a son, just as you correctly note.
Where you struggle is that you think our adoption is not real until we are received in our Father's house. Yet, the reality is, we were adopted before the foundation of the world. We were made alive with Christ while on earth. Our union with our Father, who adopted us, is in the future.

All of this is expressed in scripture. It has been presented to you. Yet, you fight against it. You imagine that our homecoming is the only predestination involved, when our very existence is predestined.

But the bible explains the redemption of the body as ' The Adoption ' . Thats what the bible calls it .

 

[AustinC]

There is no testimony in Calvinism. Just " i woke up one day ,a Calvinist " .

Your prejudice is impressive. It acts as a stumbling block to your faith.

 

[AustinC]

Rom 8.23 say s we are waiting for the Adoption.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Barry, you ignore the whole of scripture and only see one verse. I have explained God's adoptive process as shown in scripture, but you seem intent on ignoring that which goes against your prejudice. Your stumbling block is obvious to all.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you ignore the whole of scripture and only see one verse. I have explained God's adoptive process as shown in scripture, but you seem intent on ignoring that which goes against your prejudice. Your stumbling block is obvious to all.

I'm content with what the bible actually ' says ' .

 

[atpollard]

Here you claiming superiority.

I claim nothing except a difference between “interpretation” and “scripture” ... something both You and Barry appear to struggle to comprehend when you claim that people who disagree with your INTERPRETATION have “twisted” or “denied” or “rejected” SCRIPTURE.

 

[atpollard]

Actually Barry has given you the the bible it self, it's not an interpretation like yours.

No thank you, I already have several and they do not say what Barry is saying so the “bible” that Barry is offering appears to be a flawed translation.

 

[atpollard]

There is nothing in Calvinism that is Biblical.

This has already been shown false several times, so there is no need to repeat the defense. However you are the one making the claim that NOTHING in Calvinism is biblical, so the responsibility falls on you to prove that EVERYTHING in Calvinism is found nowhere in the Bible. For example, Calvinism claims that all men are dead in their sins until God makes them alive, so it falls to you to prove that the Bible does not say “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”. - [Eph 2:1-5 NASB]

Good luck with that.