Whats wrong with Calvinists ?

[atpollard]

this reminds me of when I speak to Jehovah witnesses and they just want to refer you to their magazines / literature and website.

It is truly a sad thing that someone quoting the BIBLE reminds you of a JW quoting the Watchtower, but it does explain a lot about your theological beliefs.

You might want to get over your fear of the Bible and read what it actually says.

 

[atpollard]

Yet no verse says 'chosen to be saved / converted.

You are splitting semantic hairs ...

[Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

... how can someone be PREDESTINED and not be ‘chosen’?
... how can someone be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON and not be ‘saved/converted’.

 

[atpollard]

You've literally affirmed what George said about lordship salvation.

Troll.

 

[Iconoclast]

Appeals to authority?

no,this is an appeal to someone who knows what the bible teaches compared to your comments which are void of biblical content.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet no verse says 'chosen to be saved / converted.

No verse says anyone was born again in the book of Acts. Those words were not used.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are splitting semantic hairs ...

[Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

... how can someone be PREDESTINED and not be ‘chosen’?
... how can someone be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON and not be ‘saved/converted’.

Ok suspend the idea for a moment that the trigger word ' chosen ' means in the sense of the old highlander series . And that it simply means for purpose and service . After Jesus himself was the elect ,and Israel .
Now your second point will never be clear to you unless you see that we who are already in Christ and because of being in him , now we are predestined to BE conformed/ Adoption/ inheritance/ redemption of the body . ALL of those are only recieved upon the return of Christ .

 

[Barry Johnson]

no,this is an appeal to someone who knows what the bible teaches compared to your comments which are void of biblical content.

A Calvinist has no idea what the bible says. I mean that quite literally. And I'm not saying that to be sensational.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are splitting semantic hairs ...

[Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

... how can someone be PREDESTINED and not be ‘chosen’?
... how can someone be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON and not be ‘saved/converted’.

How can someone be known as a son without first being regenerated ? John 1.12 . Then as a son NOW we are Romans 8.23 . Eph 4.30 and Eph 1.5

 

[atpollard]

How can someone be known as a son without first being regenerated ? John 1.12 . Then as a son NOW we are Romans 8.23 . Eph 4.30 and Eph 1.5

Thank you for another irrelevant non sequitur.
We were discussing chosen/predestined to be saved/conformed to the image of Christ. The Biblical/Calvinist doctrine of foreknown/chosen/predestined happens, by definition, before being regenerated (Regenerated would be called/drawn/justified).

 

[atpollard]

A Calvinist has no idea what the bible says. I mean that quite literally. And I'm not saying that to be sensational.

verba oris sapientis gratia et labia insipientis praecipitabunt eum initium verborum eius stultitia et novissimum oris illius error pessimus

 

[atpollard]

Ok suspend the idea for a moment that the trigger word ' chosen ' means in the sense of the old highlander series . And that it simply means for purpose and service . After Jesus himself was the elect ,and Israel .
Now your second point will never be clear to you unless you see that we who are already in Christ and because of being in him , now we are predestined to BE conformed/ Adoption/ inheritance/ redemption of the body . ALL of those are only recieved upon the return of Christ .

Chosen = eklogē = Strong’s G1589

Strong’s Definitions:
ἐκλογή eklogḗ, ek-log-ay'; from G1586; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely):—chosen, election.

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:
ἐκλογή, -ῆς, ἡ, (ἐκλέγω), election, choice;

a. the act of picking out, choosing: σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς (the genitive of quality; cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; [Buttmann, 161 (140f)]), equivalent to ἐκλεκτόν, namely, τοῦ θεοῦ, Acts 9:15; specifically used of that act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; — ἡ κατ’ ἐκλογὴν πρόφεσις, the decree made from choice
[A. V. the purpose according to election, cf. Winer's Grammar, 193 (182)], Romans 9:11 (cf. Fritzsche at the passage, p. 298ff); — particularly that by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ, Romans 11:28; κατ’ ἐκλογὴν χάριτος, according to an election which is due to grace, or a gracious election, Romans 11:5; with the genitive of the person elected, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10.

b. the thing or person chosen: equivalent to ἐκλεκτοί, Romans 11:7. (Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, Diodorus, Josephus, Dionysius Halicarnassus, others.)

Bible verses containing G1589:

• [Act 9:15 NASB] 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen[G1589] instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
• [Rom 9:11 NASB] 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice[G1589] would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
• [Rom 11:5, 7, 28 NASB] 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to [God's] gracious choice.[G1589] ... 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those[G1589] who were chosen[G1589] obtained it, and the rest were hardened; ... 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of [God's] choice[G1589] they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
• [1Th 1:4 NASB] 4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, [His] choice[G1589] of you;
• [2Pe 1:10 NASB] 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing[G1589] you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Let’s just stick with the Biblical meaning of “chosen” ... that’s what Calvinists do when we say that God chose whom He would save.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Thank you for another irrelevant non sequitur.
We were discussing chosen/predestined to be saved/conformed to the image of Christ. The Biblical/Calvinist doctrine of foreknown/chosen/predestined happens, by definition, before being regenerated (Regenerated would be called/drawn/justified).

Yes I know thats what you have been spoon fed . But the bible says very clearly
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

 

[AustinC]

Ok suspend the idea for a moment that the trigger word ' chosen ' means in the sense of the old highlander series . And that it simply means for purpose and service . After Jesus himself was the elect ,and Israel .
Now your second point will never be clear to you unless you see that we who are already in Christ and because of being in him , now we are predestined to BE conformed/ Adoption/ inheritance/ redemption of the body . ALL of those are only recieved upon the return of Christ .

Barry, why do you teach random salvation, but predestined after the random salvation? Nowhere does the Bible teach what you are teaching.
Why would you even desire such a bizarre thing whereby God is clueless about who is saved, until after they are saved? To me, that is a really wimpy Creator God. Why would you think that is what God teaches in the Bible?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, why do you teach random salvation, but predestined after the random salvation? Nowhere does the Bible teach what you are teaching.
Why would you even desire such a bizarre thing whereby God is clueless about who is saved, until after they are saved? To me, that is a really wimpy Creator God. Why would you think that is what God teaches in the Bible?

God is Omniscient. Ok that being settled. Let's talk about God not ' knowing ' us as a son before we are born . Let's talk about how we become sons, in Christ. And only at that point does God know us AS A SON . you were not born automatically in Christ .You were born with Eph 2.11-12 hanging over you . Wake up calvinsts ,its time to snap out of the paradigm .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, why do you teach random salvation, but predestined after the random salvation? Nowhere does the Bible teach what you are teaching.
Why would you even desire such a bizarre thing whereby God is clueless about who is saved, until after they are saved? To me, that is a really wimpy Creator God. Why would you think that is what God teaches in the Bible?

You have no idea what anyone else teaches on the bible beyond calvinsm . You can only see Calvinism and Arminism . You only have pre packaged answers against your own off shoot, Arminism . Another view is so radical to you because you only know what's within the hive .The Calvinst v Arminism debate ensures that you never see whats going on outside. You think the authors of the bible are talking about calvinsm v Arminism Its like the Trueman show .

 

[utilyan]

Barry, why do you teach random salvation, but predestined after the random salvation? Nowhere does the Bible teach what you are teaching.
Why would you even desire such a bizarre thing whereby God is clueless about who is saved, until after they are saved? To me, that is a really wimpy Creator God. Why would you think that is what God teaches in the Bible?

Just the opposite, Wimp can't take punishment would have to control everything fend for his "safety", "pride".

Thats the point of Jesus Christ. That is the pinnacle of WALKING ALL OVER GOD. You probably think it was WIMPY move God letting his most prized love the very innocents who didn't deserve not even the least of any suffering to suffer.

You would of have sent legion of angels to stop it right? There is no worst thing in existence then to have Jesus suffer.

And all those things are pointless even existence is pointless if it all falls on whether God hits a switch and mind wipes you.

Jesus doesn't save you at all. God hitting the elect switch saves. Jesus becomes worthless. His death makes no statement.

 

[AustinC]

God is Omniscient. Ok that being settled. Let's talk about God not ' knowing ' us as a son before we are born . Let's talk about how we become sons, in Christ. And only at that point does God know us AS A SON . you were not born automatically in Christ .You were born with Eph 2.11-12 hanging over you . Wake up calvinsts ,its time to snap out of the paradigm .

Do you really want to read about how God knows his children before they even exist?

Let us see what God says to Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Isaiah 49:5 And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—

Ephesians 1:4 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

Barry, the Bible contends against you.

 

[AustinC]

Just the opposite, Wimp can't take punishment would have to control everything fend for his "safety", "pride".

Thats the point of Jesus Christ. That is the pinnacle of WALKING ALL OVER GOD. You probably think it was WIMPY move God letting his most prized love the very innocents who didn't deserve not even the least of any suffering to suffer.

You would of have sent legion of angels to stop it right? There is no worst thing in existence then to have Jesus suffer.

And all those things are pointless even existence is pointless if it all falls on whether God hits a switch and mind wipes you.

Jesus doesn't save you at all. God hitting the elect switch saves. Jesus becomes worthless. His death makes no statement.

I have no idea what you are railing about. Are you okay?

 

[Salty]

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