Featured Does God Have Libertarian Free Will?

Romans 9, unless the LORD leaves a remnant (so then by His active intervention) you would have been destroyed in HELL.
The remnant must be saved and so then God makes certain of His work of righteousness upon the earth, v28, for the sake of the remnant whom He saves, who without His help, they would have also become like Sodom, and made like Gomorrah.
Few there are that walk on the path to eternal life (the REMNANT), Many are they which walk the path to destruction, (Sodom and Gomorra)

25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

 

Does God stretch out His hands in vain? I thought no one could thwart His purposes. Yet here He is doing something in vain! And then He has to provoke His people to jealousy through a foolish people. Is that because He isn’t able to speak the word to them that causes them to cry for mercy? Sounds like it according to your view.


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It is an example of God being good to people who dont by faith in His promises. None of those were born again, none of them had what Moses says right here about them.
Deuteronomy 29
1 These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

I'd like to reply to this, if I may...

I disagree, and if you think Christ was waiting for anything ( such as rebellious and hardhearted sinners asking to be set free from what we love...our sin ), I respectfully think that you are mistaken.
Just because it may look that way, does not make these statements any less true:

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:44-45 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. " ( John 6:64-65 ).

Even on the cross ( which was long after He made these statements in chapter 6 ),
the Lord Jesus knew who it was that would believe, and who would betray Him.
I clearly see that, if anyone comes to Christ and asks Him to remember them, it's because they were first acted upon by God, in their hearts.
If you don't agree, you don't agree.

But that is what I see when I read John 6.

I agree..
It seems like He was waiting;
But was He?

I agree that He does will to show mercy and compassion ( Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13 ) on all who ask Him.
Yet, Scripture says that we as men do not seek God on our own ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 ).

So if He's waiting for us to do something ( like ask Him to be merciful to us, as sinners, Luke 18:13 ),
He'll have a very long wait.

 

Yes, God would be waiting forever for fallen man to come to Him, it just does not happen unless He helps them.
God does not wait for those who will not inherit salvation.
And Christ only helps to salvation those the Father has elected and foreknew as His people.

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

God only aids the seed of Abraham to salvation. That includes Jew and gentile whom he brings to glory, that does not include the seed of the world who have Satan as their father. The children spoken of here are the foreknown children of God, not the children of the devil. These children which God gives Christ are His brethren, and only they are saved.

 

Study 2 Peter 3. Peter contrast the evil people of the world versus the beloved who are of God who will be saved.
Up to verse 7 are the wicked mentioned, but verse 8 through 9 are God's beloved whom God is not willing that any of these beloved perish in hell. It is for them that God is longsuffering of His wrath, for their sake so that they may be saved. The earlier persons are not the beloved, they are the wicked who will be destroyed in verse 10

but is longsuffering toward us (the beloved of God, His foreknown to Him people, His children, not the others)

not willing that any (of us foreknown beloved) should perish but that all (of us foreknown beloved) should come to repentance.

 

Here’s what Matthew Henry said about that verse:
1. Moses laments their stupidity: Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive, v. 4. This does not lay the blame of their senselessness, and sottishness, and unbelief, upon God, as if they had stood ready to receive his grace and had begged for it, but he had denied them; no, but it fastens the guilt upon themselves. "The Lord, who is the Father of spirits, a God in covenant with you, and who had always been so rich in mercy to you, no doubt would have crowned all his other gifts with this, he would have given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see if you had not by your own frowardness and perverseness frustrated his kind intentions, and received his grace in vain.'

Henry says they received His grace, but in vain because they wouldn’t give Him glory for what He had already given. A kind of not-so-irresistible grace, if you will.

So both suggest to us that God’s grace is not irresistible, and that when we respond to the grace already given (Jesus was dying on the cross for His sins before His very eyes), God responds with more unmerited favor.


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I wasn’t saying Jesus was waiting before He did ANYTHING, only before He granted to that particular thief eternal life. He obviously was already on the cross. And we know that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Do we need to say God had to do more than have Christ die for us in order to save us? Christ’s death isn’t sufficient for our salvation?

 

I don't think you're seeing the significance, Derf.

There's a reason why He gave the thief eternal life, and it wasn't because the thief asked Him to remember him.

 

I absolutely agree! And that’s what I stated in my last post. Here’s another way to state that reason:
John 3:14-16 (KJV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which shows what God does, certainly without our prompting, and it shows what our response needs to be, prompted by the display of His marvelous grace.

That’s good news, don’t you think? For thieves and other sinners, like me.


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It is good news, Derf, for every sinner that God chooses and causes them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 )...
to see their sinful condition before Him and to show them their desperate need of a Saviour.

Remember that both thieves started out complaining and asking Jesus if He were the Son of God, why could He not come down off the cross, save Himself and them ( Matthew 27:39-44, Mark 15:29-32 );
But then the thief on one side repented, while the one on the other side never did anything other than to rail on and revile Christ ( Luke 23:39-43 ) and never did repent?
Why do you think the one who repented, did so?

I see John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65 and John 17:2 at work here.
In other words, I see the work of God in a "dead" sinner's heart clearly manifested.

Don't you?

 

God also did this, He blinded their eyes and God hardened their hearts to prevent them from understanding and believing .
This is a working of God , and God does this so that no man can understand spiritual truth unless God reveals Himself to a person. In a way, it is like God denying to Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Life after they sinned in Eden. Man can not grab for himself Truth on his own initiative, This is against the will of God. This is in perfect agreement with what God did with Israel under Moses. And it is still true down to this very day.
John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: (just like Moses said to them)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

AND AGAIN JAMES SAYS
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Wisdom to understand comes down from the Father, it never originates with MAN, God prevents that deliberately according to His perfect will.

 

Who is the "he" and who is the "I", Scott? (Hint, who is the one who heals? And since it's in the same sentence, how could "he", third person, and "I", first person, be the same person?
"39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

I'm not sure what to offer you for the James quote. "Blindness" doesn't sound like much of a "good and perfect gift" to me. I'm not saying God can't do it, but it hardly qualifies for the James passage.

 

You want me to tell you why one guy repented and the other didn't, as in accordance with my view? Maybe they were exercising their own free will, just like Cain and Abel?????

You can see the work of God in a "dead sinner's heart" with Cain, with the threat:
[Gen 4:6 KJV] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[Gen 4:7 KJV] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And again, with the punishment:
[Gen 4:10 KJV] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
[Gen 4:11 KJV] And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
[Gen 4:12 KJV] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And again, with mercy:
[Gen 4:15 KJV] And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Is it possible you try to jam too much unintended meaning into "dead sinner's heart"?

 

The spiritual gift is a blessing that comes from the Father to know the truth and be saved. That is the good and perfect gift. Blindness come from God is not any good gift, but part of the curse on evil fallen sinful men. Curses are a real thing that God pronounced on fallen man.

And blindness come from God matches other scriptures conceptually. So the understanding is certain and solid that the 'He' is God and the 'I' also That He (God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

 

That hard-hearted, sin-biased will that we all have from the womb?

That, my friend, is an illusion born of pride...
Something we all have but for the grace and mercy of God.

An all-too-human fault that leads to us thinking that our will can be carried out, no matter what;
"Where there's a will, there's a way."

If you have Scriptures that outright declare that man's will, when exercised, can please God, I'm willing to review them...
But don't be surprised if I disagree, Derf.
I haven't found anything in God's word yet that would make me think that man is anything less than "dead" toward God and His ways in our affections and desires.

Start a thread detailing the Scriptures that clearly show that man's will determines God's favor, and I'll make some replies.

 

Yet Cain murdered his brother for mysteriously being able to please God,
all the while that Cain was angry at not being "Abel" to.

Question:

How did Abel know how to please God, and Cain didn't?
Chance?

As Cain ( and all of us ) deserve.

God delights in showing His mercy to sinners.
But He is also willing to show His wrath and to make His power known.

There are reasons and purposes behind both, my friend.

No more than I see the Scriptures teaching.
I have a suggested list if you'd like to take a look:

Romans 1
Romans 2
Romans 3:10-18.
Ephesians 4:17-19.

Psalms...All of them.
Proverbs...all of them.
Genesis.
The Prophets.

All of it is a wealth of information on who we are and what we're guilty of ( and how likely we are to treat the Lord less-than-seriously ) as a race.

 

Are you assuming that because the bible doesn't tell us what Abel knew (and maybe Cain), that we can assume we know? That seems presumptuous to me.

And how many times is the word "dead" or "death" used in your Romans and Ephesians references? One time, total. And it's talking about Jesus Christ being resurrected from the dead, not about people being "spiritually" dead. So it seems like you've crammed quite a lot of meaning into the term, if your references don't mention it.

I have never seen a single place in scripture that uses the term "spiritually dead".(except the Good News Translation, which has added the word "spiritually" to Eph 2:1 where no other translation has that I've found).

It is at most a concept, and it requires a certain way of translating the scripture to come up with the concept--one that dismisses more direct scripture, because "we know better".

 

I thought no one seeks after God...

 

I'll look into this. Please know that "God's favor" isn't the same thing as "salvation". I agree with you that we can't earn our salvation--that being dead in trespasses and sins means that we can't gain life through our works. But there are a number of people that have done things that God approves of, and they did it through wanting to do it, wanting to please God.

I've already seen the kind of answer I would expect from you, where you assumed that Abel was NOT able to willingly please God without something else applied by God. While that may be true, the passage doesn't say it, and you have to assume something the passage doesn't say to get that.