SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
John 14:28, "You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"
When does this relate to?
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Jesus THE Creator - Part 1
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
John 14:28, "You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"
When does this relate to?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Functional subordination.
Was the Father eternally “greater” than the eternal son in a functionally subordinate role?
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The manner or extent that Jesus limited Himself has been debated for two thousand years. He didn’t stop being fully God, but humbled himself by taking on the weakness of flesh.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
as the Person God-Man, but never in His Divine Nature, which is why Jesus could also say, "I and the Father, we are one".
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I have wondered... Did Jesus use His divine attributes at anytime during the incarnation? Or did He rely solely on empowerment from God the Father/God Holy Spirit?
In other words, did Jesus perform any miracles that could not have been performed by a human being empowered by God?
Peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, and therefore can never cease to be Almighty God. Philippians 2:5, 6 tells us, "Christ Jesus...Who being (υπαρχων, exist really) in the very nature of God...", "took upon Himself the very nature of humans (sin excepted)" (7). While on earth, Jesus had the Power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10); give life to those who believed in Him (John 10:28); claim equal honour with the Father (John 5:23); Make Himself equal with God (John 5:18); claim for Himself to be THE I AM (John 8:58, with Exodus 3:14-15); Order the storm to be calm (Mark 4:35-41); claimed equal power and authority with the Father (John 10:28-29); healed the blind (John 9); accepted direct worship (John 9:38); claims equal power with the Father to raise the dead (John 5:21). Accepted that He is Almighty God (John 20:28); Raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-22), etc, etc.
As the Unchanging, Eternal, Omnipotent God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Great I AM; YHWH, God manifested in the flesh, Jesus Christ, did NOT have to depend on anyone!!!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, that didn’t directly answer my question, but I’ll address what you said.
When Jesus fasted 40 days and then was tempted by S:tan, He refused to use His divine attributes. After that temptation, He still didn’t use His divvied attributes, but instead the angels came and ministered to him.
Jesus depended on the angels, sent by God, to nurse Him back to health.
So again, did Jesus ever perform a miracle that could not be performed by any man empowered by God?
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
that really is not the case with Jesus Christ. God is All Powerful, so He can give "power" to humans to do what he wants them to, like through Moses, and Elijah. However, Jesus Christ IS Himself Almighty God, and cannot cease to be this. However, He did, by His own choosing, make Himself "subject" to the Father while on earth, when He "laid aside" His equal Glory with the Father. Some of Jesus' words and actions are attributed to His Divine nature, and others, to His human. He is The God-Man, 100% Almighty God, and 100% human (minus sin), though One Person.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’ll try to make my question a little clearer.
When Jesus “emptied” Himself, took on humanity, became flesh, during His earthly ministry, deliberately not use His divine attributes.
Did He rely only on the empowerment granted to Him (in His humanity) by God the Father/God Holy Spirit? Did this actual subordination require He only use the “power” given to Him by other members of the Godhead? Did He rely on their strength? Their encouragement? Their presence in His life, just like any other human being should do?
I understand He never ceased to be God.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the answer to your questions depends on what you undersatnd abotu Jesus being God.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
How so? It seems the answer to my question depends on understanding the extent of the “emptying” of the 2nd person of the Godhead during His earthly ministry.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
indeed, you answered your own questions!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Not really. Stating the question doesn’t answer it, but thanks for the conversation. I’ll keep thinking about this.
I haven’t heard anyone else address this particular question, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find a long history of discussion.
peace to you
He was in a limited state, while still fully God, assumed and accepted limitations of the flesh!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I understand that. But prior/after ascension: has the 2nd person always existed functionally subordinate (not actual subordination) to God the Father?
peace to you
Great Question, think that walking on water and commanding the storm was a God thing!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No doubt a “God thing” miracle. But did Jesus use His own attributes, or did He rely on the empowerment of God the Father/God Holy Spirit to accomplish that?
peace to you