Spiritual Life and Spiritual Death

[JonC]

On another thread I tried to explain an argument to @Iconoclast . I hope that this will allow others who may have misunderstood my argument to ask questions as well as those who do understand to help explain what I mean.

On an old thread @Iconoclast keeps bringing up TheBiblicist defined spiritual life as fellowship with God and spiritual death as separation from God. I defined spiritual life as "in Christ/ sealed by the Spirit" and spiritual death as being outside of Christ.

One definition is relational (fellowship or separation in relation to God) and the other is ontological (sealed by the Spirit, God putting His Spirit in us).

If you look at those old threads you will see those terms (I argue Adam was not spiritually alive ontologically).

So my argument is that prior to the Fall Adam was spiritually alive (relationally) because he had fellowship with God and when he sinned he died spiritually (relationally) because he experienced a separation from God.

But my argument is also that prior to the Fall Adam was not spiritually alive (ontologically) as he was not "sealed by the Spirit" and did not have God's Spirit in him, but was in fact spiritually dead (ontologically).

 

[AustinC]

What Bible passage argues that a person is only spiritually alive, if the Holy Spirit seals a person?

Your argument seems to be:
Spirit must seal a person before a person is brought from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Please show the passage or passages that convey this idea and then extend that concept to the first Adam.

 

[JonC]

What Bible passage argues that a person is only spiritually alive, if the Holy Spirit seals a person?

Your argument seems to be:
Spirit must seal a person before a person is brought from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Please show the passage or passages that convey this idea and then extend that concept to the first Adam.

It is an issue of definitions, I know. Using the definition that spiritual life is fellowship with God I obviously believe Adam was created spiritually alive.

But Scripture does not use those words. Scripture uses "flesh" and "spirit" stating in 1 Cor 15 that Adam was created flesh as opposed to spirit.

Christ describes Himself as the Life (Jn. 14) and God speaks of removing a man's heart and putting His Spirit in man and Christ became a life-giving Spirit.

Are there any other definitions of "spiritual life" in Scripture opposing this view?

 

[AustinC]

It is an issue of definitions, I know. Using the definition that spiritual life is fellowship with God I obviously believe Adam was created spiritually alive.

But Scripture does not use those words. Scripture uses "flesh" and "spirit" stating in 1 Cor 15 that Adam was created flesh as opposed to spirit.

Christ describes Himself as the Life (Jn. 14) and God speaks of removing a man's heart and putting His Spirit in man and Christ became a life-giving Spirit.

Are there any other definitions of "spiritual life" in Scripture opposing this view?

John, I asked for Bible passages that express your assertion in which you can apply to the first Adam. Do you have a specific passage or passages that clearly convey your assertion.

1 Corinthians 15 and John 14 are extremely vague. Please express what you see in those two chapters that strengthen your argument.

 

[37818]

On an old thread @Iconoclast keeps bringing up TheBiblicist defined spiritual life as fellowship with God and spiritual death as separation from God. I defined spiritual life as "in Christ/ sealed by the Spirit" and spiritual death as being outside of Christ.

I understand both definitions to be one and the same. That is, you cannot have fellowship with God without being in Christ. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, 1 John 5:12, John 14:6.

Adam from human beginnings took mankind from spiritlual life to spiritual death. Christ as the second Adam made it possible for people to go from spiritual death to spiritual life.

 

[JonC]

John, I asked for Bible passages that express your assertion in which you can apply to the first Adam. Do you have a specific passage or passages that clearly convey your assertion.

1 Corinthians 15 and John 14 are extremely vague. Please express what you see in those two chapters that strengthen your argument.

I do not see those chapters as vague in regards to Christ being this Life or Adam being created flesh and not spirit. But I do agree in terms of this conversation they are vague as Adam is not spoken of in detail pre-Fall. That said, we have to work with what we have and there are no passages stating the contrary (that Adam had a "spiritual life" that was ontological to Adam). We know Adam had "spiritual life" in terms of an intimate relationship/ communion with God and that he was created "upright" and without sin. So I do agree that type of life existed with man pre-fall and was lost.

My argument that Christ is the Life (and this referring to spiritual life) being something Adam lacked is derived from Scripture but it is reasoned out (I am not claiming my understanding is scripture itself).

Here is my reasoning:

I believe that God is immutable and does not change. I do not believe that there was one kind of life for Adam and another for everyone else. Jesus said that He is the Life, and I believe that He was speaking in an eternal sense.

Scripture also tells us that Adam was created flesh and not spirit. I know that the text does not specifically address "pre-fall" vs "post-fall" Adam, but in absence of any text to the contrary I think it reasonable to conclude that Adam being created flesh as opposed to spirit refers to pre-Fall.

Scripture teaches that Christ became the "Firstborn" of many brethern. If Adam was already "spiritually alive" in an ontolgoical sense, possessing the Life that is Christ, then Christ is not the Firstborn but is second to Adam.

 

[37818]

I do not see those chapters as vague in regards to Christ being this Life or Adam being created flesh and not spirit. But I do agree in terms of this conversation they are vague as Adam is not spoken of in detail pre-Fall. That said, we have to work with what we have and there are no passages stating the contrary (that Adam had a "spiritual life" that was ontological to Adam). We know Adam had "spiritual life" in terms of an intimate relationship/ communion with God and that he was created "upright" and without sin. So I do agree that type of life existed with man pre-fall and was lost.

My argument that Christ is the Life (and this referring to spiritual life) being something Adam lacked is derived from Scripture but it is reasoned out (I am not claiming my understanding is scripture itself).

Here is my reasoning:

I believe that God is immutable and does not change. I do not believe that there was one kind of life for Adam and another for everyone else. Jesus said that He is the Life, and I believe that He was speaking in an eternal sense.

Scripture also tells us that Adam was created flesh and not spirit. I know that the text does not specifically address "pre-fall" vs "post-fall" Adam, but in absence of any text to the contrary I think it reasonable to conclude that Adam being created flesh as opposed to spirit refers to pre-Fall.

Scripture teaches that Christ became the "Firstborn" of many brethern. If Adam was already "spiritually alive" in an ontolgoical sense, possessing the Life that is Christ, then Christ is not the Firstborn but is second to Adam.

There are some main dfferences. Adam before the fall, did not eat of the Tree of Life, and was prevented after the fall. The Tree of Life will be available in the New Heaven and Earth.

You want to make a clear distinction between the spiritual and ontological life. In the resurretion we will have an ontological eternal life before we can partake in the Tree of Life, which would have given the frist Adam an Eternal state.

 

[JonC]

There are some main dfferences. Adam before the fall, did not eat of the Tree of Life, and was prevented after the fall. The Tree of Life will be available in the New Heaven and Earth.

You want to make a clear distinction between the spiritual and ontological life. In the resurretion we will have an ontological eternal life before we can partake in the Tree of Life, which would have given the frist Adam an Eternal state.

I believe that Adam would have had "spiritual life" (ontologically) had he eaten of the Tree of Life, but I also associate the Tree of Life with the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (with Christ).

So I view the spiritual life that Adam did have as based on his relationship with God, but not based on anything in Adam himself.

That said, I am only trying to explain my reasoning and what I believe (not arguing I am correct, although I of course believe I am, or trying to sway anyone to my view).

We have very few verses concerning Adam pre-Fall, and none of them address "spiritual life" either way.

 

[Van]

On another thread I tried to explain an argument to @Iconoclast . I hope that this will allow others who may have misunderstood my argument to ask questions as well as those who do understand to help explain what I mean.

On an old thread @Iconoclast keeps bringing up TheBiblicist defined spiritual life as fellowship with God and spiritual death as separation from God. I defined spiritual life as "in Christ/ sealed by the Spirit" and spiritual death as being outside of Christ.

One definition is relational (fellowship or separation in relation to God) and the other is ontological (sealed by the Spirit, God putting His Spirit in us).

If you look at those old threads you will see those terms (I argue Adam was not spiritually alive ontologically).

So my argument is that prior to the Fall Adam was spiritually alive (relationally) because he had fellowship with God and when he sinned he died spiritually (relationally) because he experienced a separation from God.

But my argument is also that prior to the Fall Adam was not spiritually alive (ontologically) as he was not "sealed by the Spirit" and did not have God's Spirit in him, but was in fact spiritually dead (ontologically).

I have no position on whether Adam died spiritually when he was separated from God, but as to our current dispensation under the New Covenant, I am sure we are made alive together with Christ, thus when "in Christ" and we are spiritually dead, when we are outside and not in Christ. If we were alive and not "in Christ" then we could not be "made alive" when we are "together with Christ.

 

[JonC]

I have no position on whether Adam died spiritually when he was separated from God, but as to our current dispensation under the New Covenant, I am sure we are made alive together with Christ, thus when "in Christ" and we are spiritually dead, when we are outside and not in Christ. If we were alive and not "in Christ" then we could not be "made alive" when we are "together with Christ.

I agree. I only use "spiritual death" to mean "in fellowship with God" rather than "in Christ" in a New Covenant sense because that was the definition that was being used on another thread (and it seemed to be a more popular definition).

 

[AustinC]

I do not see those chapters as vague in regards to Christ being this Life or Adam being created flesh and not spirit. But I do agree in terms of this conversation they are vague as Adam is not spoken of in detail pre-Fall. That said, we have to work with what we have and there are no passages stating the contrary (that Adam had a "spiritual life" that was ontological to Adam). We know Adam had "spiritual life" in terms of an intimate relationship/ communion with God and that he was created "upright" and without sin. So I do agree that type of life existed with man pre-fall and was lost.

My argument that Christ is the Life (and this referring to spiritual life) being something Adam lacked is derived from Scripture but it is reasoned out (I am not claiming my understanding is scripture itself).

Here is my reasoning:

I believe that God is immutable and does not change. I do not believe that there was one kind of life for Adam and another for everyone else. Jesus said that He is the Life, and I believe that He was speaking in an eternal sense.

Scripture also tells us that Adam was created flesh and not spirit. I know that the text does not specifically address "pre-fall" vs "post-fall" Adam, but in absence of any text to the contrary I think it reasonable to conclude that Adam being created flesh as opposed to spirit refers to pre-Fall.

Scripture teaches that Christ became the "Firstborn" of many brethern. If Adam was already "spiritually alive" in an ontolgoical sense, possessing the Life that is Christ, then Christ is not the Firstborn but is second to Adam.

Jon, perhaps I was too vague.
I am asking you to quote the scripture and explain how that scripture actually proves your assertion.
From my perspective, you are speaking around the Bible and instead arguing a philosophy apart from the Bible. I have no desire to talk philosophy.

 

[JonC]

Jon, perhaps I was too vague.
I am asking you to quote the scripture and explain how that scripture actually proves your assertion.
From my perspective, you are speaking around the Bible and instead arguing a philosophy apart from the Bible. I have no desire to talk philosophy.

Oh. Well, first of all the passage does not prove my assertion. We are speaking of something that God chose not to reveal in Scripture. In fact, "spiritual life" and "spiritual death" are not spiritual terms. Therefore it is up to us to come up with definitions to communicate our ideas about these terms in a meaningful way.

I know of two definitions.

One is that "spiritual life" is fellowship with God. This is not in the Bible, but I understand the definition and can use "spiritual life" to speak of "fellowship with God".

The other is that "spiritual life" refers to the life given by Christ as a "Life giving Spirit" and the act of God putting His Spirit in us. Scripture does speak of life in these terms.

I have suggested elsewhere (and I will again) that it would be better to use the terms Scripture does use - "flesh" and "spirit". So the question becomes whether God created Adam as spirit or flesh. I believe God created Adam as flesh (a human body and a spirit set on the flesh).

I understand people may disagree, and that is perfectly fine. As long as we know what one another means then we can have a discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

On another thread I tried to explain an argument to @Iconoclast . I hope that this will allow others who may have misunderstood my argument to ask questions as well as those who do understand to help explain what I mean.

On an old thread @Iconoclast keeps bringing up TheBiblicist defined spiritual life as fellowship with God and spiritual death as separation from God. I defined spiritual life as "in Christ/ sealed by the Spirit" and spiritual death as being outside of Christ.

One definition is relational (fellowship or separation in relation to God) and the other is ontological (sealed by the Spirit, God putting His Spirit in us).

If you look at those old threads you will see those terms (I argue Adam was not spiritually alive ontologically).

So my argument is that prior to the Fall Adam was spiritually alive (relationally) because he had fellowship with God and when he sinned he died spiritually (relationally) because he experienced a separation from God.

But my argument is also that prior to the Fall Adam was not spiritually alive (ontologically) as he was not "sealed by the Spirit" and did not have God's Spirit in him, but was in fact spiritually dead (ontologically).

Adam was in a relationship with God due to His creation by God, no sin was found in him, and as such, did not need the Holy Spirit to renew Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

I understand both definitions to be one and the same. That is, you cannot have fellowship with God without being in Christ. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, 1 John 5:12, John 14:6.

Adam from human beginnings took mankind from spiritlual life to spiritual death. Christ as the second Adam made it possible for people to go from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Adam was in a unique situation, as he was spiritually alive due to being divine creation, until he fell, no need for either the Messiah or the Spirit!

 

[JonC]

Adam was in a relationship with God due to His creation by God, no sin was found in him, and as such, did not need the Holy Spirit to renew Him!

That is a good summary of what I said.

Looking at Adam "in time" (rather than potential or through redemptive history) Adam was not a sinner until he sinned. At that point spiritual death became a reality and Adam was separated from God.

 

[JonC]

Adam was in a unique situation, as he was spiritually alive due to being divine creation, until he fell, no need for either the Messiah or the Spirit!

Define "spiritual life".
Thanks.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a good summary of what I said.

Looking at Adam "in time" (rather than potential or through redemptive history) Adam was not a sinner until he sinned. At that point spiritual death became a reality and Adam was separated from God.

He also became a sinner, so tasted spiritual death!

 

[JonC]

He also became a sinner, so tasted spiritual death!

Define "spiritual death".

Thanks

 

[Yeshua1]

Define "spiritual life".
Thanks.

In a relationship with God perfectly, as he was soul body and spirit untainted yet by effects of any sin! of all humans to ever exist, only he and Jesus shared that!

 

[JonC]

In a relationship with God perfectly, as he was soul body and spirit untainted yet by effects of any sin! of all humans to ever exist, only he and Jesus shared that!

If "spiritual life" means in a perfect relationship with God, then I agree with you. And "spiritual death" would be a separation from that relationship with God.

I do disagree with the idea that only Adam and Jesus shared that relationship with God, but that is largely because I believe Jesus is God in the Garden and Adam never had the relationship with the Father and Spirit that the Son had, being that Adam was never a member of the Trinity.