Spiritual Life and Spiritual Death

[Wesley Briggman]

All believers are in a struggle between the sin that dwelleth in us (sin nature) and the will to obey God's revelation.

[Rom 7:17-20 KJV] 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Dave G]

Prior to Jesus Christ being raised out of the dead, no more to die nor no more to return to corruption, was there any life relative to man that could be construed as spiritual life?

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Abel, Noah, David, and many others I'm thinking, all had spiritual life IMO.

They all knew the Lord and some had His Spirit upon them for long periods.
I believe "regeneration", or being born again, is part of having spiritual life.

 

[percho]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Abel, Noah, David, and many others I'm thinking, all had spiritual life IMO.

They all knew the Lord and some had His Spirit upon them for long periods.
I believe "regeneration", or being born again, is part of having spiritual life.

Are you saying that they would inherit the kingdom of God even if Jesus the Son of God had not been obedient unto death even the death of the cross, even if Jesus the Son of God had not given his life, his blood See Lev 17:11?

Now one might ask; Because Jesus was the Son of God was it not impossible for Jesus to not have been obedient? I believe it was possible. I believe the whole concept of why the promise of God who cannot lie which was made before the beginning of time, is, Hope of eternal life.

Eternal life, for one to live incorruptible and die no more, after having been dead, was predicated upon the obedience of the Son of God to die, the death assigned for sin.

Hebrews 5:7,8 States even being Son he learned the obedience. Learned the obedience unto death, learned the obedience of giving his life, learned the obedience of faith.

Here is a thought that just came to me.

through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:8
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name, Phil 2:6-9 YLT

Was that obedience an attribute being in the form of God or being the form of servant in the likeness of man?
Is what follows, wherefore, predicated upon that obedience?

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Abel, Noah, David, and many others I'm thinking, all had spiritual life IMO.

They all knew the Lord and some had His Spirit upon them for long periods.
I believe "regeneration", or being born again, is part of having spiritual life.

They were regenerated but did not seem to have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, sealed in them, as we do now!

 

[Dave G]

Are you saying that they would inherit the kingdom of God even if Jesus the Son of God had not been obedient unto death even the death of the cross, even if Jesus the Son of God had not given his life, his blood See Lev 17:11?

No.
His death, burial and resurrection were for them, as well.

Was that obedience an attribute being in the form of God or being the form of servant in the likeness of man?
Is what follows, wherefore, predicated upon that obedience?

Man.
He was made a little lower than the angels...etc.
His obedience left us a pattern to follow ( 1 Peter 2:21 ).

 

[percho]

No.
His death, burial and resurrection were for them, as well.

Man.
He was made a little lower than the angels...etc.
His obedience left us a pattern to follow ( 1 Peter 2:21 ).

So was it the obedience of that one man by which we are made righteous or by us following him in obedience that ultimately makes us righteous? Romans 5:19

Why was Adam made a little lower than the angels?

 

[percho]

not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which *we* had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through a washing of regeneration and a renewal of Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, having been justified by *his* grace, we should become heirs according to hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7 Darby

And not only that, but even *we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body. For we have been saved in hope; but hope seen is not hope; for what any one sees, why does he also hope? But if what we see not we hope, we expect in patience. Rom 8:23-25 Darby

Appears the Holy Spirit poured out on us, the firstfruits of the Spirit makes us heirs of hope. When do the heirs of hope become the inheritors of eternal life?

Is eternal life the same as the redemption of the body?

BTW what does through Jesus Christ our Saviour mean? What does through, mean?

 

[Dave G]

So was it the obedience of that one man by which we are made righteous or by us following him in obedience that ultimately makes us righteous? Romans 5:19

If our righteousness were by us following Him in obedience, then our works would be what gained us that righteousness.

Instead,
It was by His obedience that we were made righteous.
It is His righteousness imputed ( credited ) to us by God the Father that counts.

In the end, we have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace towards us.

Why was Adam made a little lower than the angels?

To me, the passage isn't speaking specifically of Adam, but of the Lord Jesus...
Hebrews 2:5-18, directly referencing Psalms 8:

" For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 but one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

 

[Dave G]

But to answer your question more directly...

Why was Adam made a little lower than the angels?

I have no idea why Adam was made a little lower than the angels, except that that was the way God wanted it to be.
If you find a passage that gives that answer, I'm all ears.

 

[JonC]

But to answer your question more directly...


I have no idea why Adam was made a little lower than the angels, except that that was the way God wanted it to be.
If you find a passage that gives that answer, I'm all ears.

I believe it was to show God's glory (like God choosing Israel, the weakest of the nations, as His people).

 

[percho]

If our righteousness were by us following Him in obedience, then our works would be what gained us that righteousness.

Instead,
It was by His obedience that we were made righteous.
It is His righteousness imputed ( credited ) to us by God the Father that counts.

In the end, we have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace towards us.

To me, the passage isn't speaking specifically of Adam, but of the Lord Jesus...
Hebrews 2:5-18, directly referencing Psalms 8:

" For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 but one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

I believe it speaks, specifically, only of the two of them.

for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive

I believe both were made a little lower than the angels because the devil had the power of, the death.

The death of Adam because of sin, brought about redemption of Adam through the death of the Son of Man sig. and thus destroys him that had the power of the death.

Which also makes the last statement in the OP correct.

BTW I think spiritually alive (relationally) could come to Adam only through adoption because Adam was given a spiritual law and he was of the flesh. Ie a little lower than the angels.

To redeem them that were under law,(Do not eat of it) that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

 

[JonC]

BTW I think spiritually alive (relationally) could come to Adam only through adoption because Adam was given a spiritual law and he was of the flesh. Ie a little lower than the angels.

This is interesting.

Paul also made the comparison between Adam's transgression and the Law (that sin was present between the given of the two, but Adam's transgression was akin to transgressing the Law.

Playing off your post, @percho , do you think it would be fair to say that God's command to Adam served a similar purpose as the Law did to Israel (that the weakness of the flesh is magnified under a spiritual law requiring obedience despite the desires of the flesh)?

 

[percho]

This is interesting.

Paul also made the comparison between Adam's transgression and the Law (that sin was present between the given of the two, but Adam's transgression was akin to transgressing the Law.

Playing off your post, @percho , do you think it would be fair to say that God's command to Adam served a similar purpose as the Law did to Israel (that the weakness of the flesh is magnified under a spiritual law requiring obedience despite the desires of the flesh)?

Yes.

And I say that because I believe God created Adam of the flesh for the very purpose of redeeming him. The Lamb had already been slain in the mind of God.

I believe redemption, of the world of corruption, is the means by which, God through the Son of God manifested in the flesh, is destroying the devil and his works.

Edit to add. I believe that obedience could only come through the Son never through any other man.

 

[JonC]

Yes.

And I say that because I believe God created Adam of the flesh for the very purpose of redeeming him. The Lamb had already been slain in the mind of God.

I believe redemption, of the world of corruption, is the means by which, God through the Son of God manifested in the flesh, is destroying the devil and his works.

Edit to add. I believe that obedience could only come through the Son never through any other man.

Amen.

 

[Calminian]

All have spiritually died from sin.

Rom. 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.​

The law kills. Adam was spiritually killed by the commandment he disobeyed. We all were.

Hint, non-living things don't die.

 

[JonC]

All have spiritually died from sin.

Rom. 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.​

The law kills. Adam was spiritually killed by the commandment he disobeyed. We all were.

Hint, non-living things don't die.

The problem is man, not Scripture, speaks of people dying spiritually. Scripture speaks of human spirits that lack spiritual life (that are spiritually dead).

 

[Calminian]

The problem is man, not Scripture, speaks of people dying spiritually. Scripture speaks of human spirits that lack spiritual life (that are spiritually dead).

Exactly. And Scripture doesn't not use the language you use. It speaks of men dying spiritually, killed by the law. It never uses the language you're using.

 

[JonC]

Exactly. And Scripture doesn't not use the language you used about. It speaks of men dying spiritually, killed by the law. It never uses the language you're using.

No it doesn't. Scripture does not speak of men "dying spiritually".

 

[Calminian]

No it doesn't. Scripture does not speak of men "dying spiritually".

It does and you've been given several examples. You've merely hardened your heart toward it and bought into heresy.

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem is man, not Scripture, speaks of people dying spiritually. Scripture speaks of human spirits that lack spiritual life (that are spiritually dead).

Sinners born without any spiritual life in them until saved is being spiritually dead in sins!