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Featured The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Nov 9, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I.ll be impressed if a Calvinist actually offered context to a verse .
     
    #101 Barry Johnson, Nov 11, 2020
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We always do, have you read any of our systematic Theologies, as they get very long winded!
     
    #102 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The issue is cults and cult-like Christians use that term as a defense of doctrines they cannot legitimately defend.

    Rather than engaging about different interpretations, perspectives, and theological conclusions they just jump to the end and play God by claiming there view is "the plain teachings".

    From these people run. They do not grasp God's Word but rely on what can only be termed a "second special revelation".

    Tell me about your theology. Tell me why you believe it. And then show me in the text of scripture that belief. If it is not in the text then explain how it was derived from the text.

    But only a fool sees his or her understanding of scripture as scripture itself because that is not only elevating one's self in the place of God but it is demeaning God's Word.
     
    #103 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Yeshua1,.
    Sorry, I was not directing the last post to anyone in particular.

    I was saying it is foolish to use terms like "the plain teaching of Scripture" as we test doctrine against "what is written" NOT against what is written means to us.

    I did not realize you had used the term (I am sure it was in a different context rather than an argument or defense).
     
    #104 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wish none did. But I believe many do.
     
    #105 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Yes very long winded.
     
    #106 Barry Johnson, Nov 11, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'd be glad to show you how I arrive at the context, line by line and verse by verse, of those who come to Christ in John 6:37-70,
    or why people do not believe God's words per John 8:43-47, or any other passage that you might have a question on, Barry.

    Respectfully,
    I wouldn't do it to be impressed by you, but because you want to see if a "Calvinist" could offer context to a verse...
    And because I want to see if doing so would be helpful to you in some small way.

    If you like, you can even pick the passage and I'll do my best to answer it from my own understanding.
     
    #107 Dave G, Nov 11, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so, as it is the Lord Himself who is at work in and thru us to see that we will be there in the end?
     
    #108 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is why they are considered to be "deep theology"
     
    #109 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is why we are commanded to be able to "rightly divide the truth" pf the scriptures!
     
    #110 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Deep, clever philosophical reasons as to why the bible is not true maybe .
     
    #111 Barry Johnson, Nov 11, 2020
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Just was using that phrase in the sense that many times, cults will ignore the plain teaching and plain meanings to get inserted in their own peculiar founders doctrines!
     
    #112 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I do not see Spurgeon, Hodge, Berkhof, Bavinick et all as saying that the Bible is not true!
     
    #113 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that only ones that I have ran into are into word of faith the ilk, as they hold to modern day Apostles and prophets!
     
    #114 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Of course . I'm saying if you could step back you would see that's what it really is .
     
    #115 Barry Johnson, Nov 11, 2020
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Regeneration precedes faith is as peculiar as any other we find within other worldviews. All the difference is really down to how well established the idea has imbedded its way into christianity over the centuries that no one flinches at it anymore .
     
    #116 Barry Johnson, Nov 11, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You would be surprised.

    I recall an old post where a member was offended to see another daring to question the words of John Gill because he was given to us by God and to question Gill was to question God.

    That member is still here, and active.
     
    #117 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It depends on what you belueve to be the "plain teachings" of scripture.

    Can you take a highlighter and highlight the words you are upholding as scripture?

    That will answer any question.
     
    #118 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Gill was a hyper Calvinist.....
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. To rightly divide truth using Scripture as that measure (not subjecting scripture to what we believe is true).
     
    #120 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
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