PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

It is funny how you muddy the waters with verses taken out of context to create a false prooftext.

It reminds me of those who teach prevenient grace from John 6:44.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

RC Sproul has a good teaching series on being chosen by God in which he speaks to this verse.

The Greek word, translated as "draw" in this verse is translated "drag" in every other passage of the Bible. It turns out there is an instance in a Greek play where the play write uses the word for drawing water from a well, so many English translators have used "draw" in this instance.

RC makes the humorous note that he has never seen water jump into the bucket on its own accord. Even in this verse, the idea is that God does the work and drags (draws) the person up out of the well, like he would draw water up from a well. The water didn't come to the person, the water was pulled up from the well by the person drawing water from the well.
RC did a marvelous job, in my opinion, in explaining the verse.

"Man's Radical Fallenness" from Ligonier Ministries Man's Radical Fallenness by R.C. Sproul

 

Are all men, universally, dragged to Jesus, Barry?

John 6:45-47,63-65
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 10:14-18,25-30
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Barry there are multiple passages that have been shared with you and you blow them off. You are responsible for ignoring them.

 

Barry, with everyone who has shown you the whole timeline and context, it's a sure bet that it is you who has no understanding of the timeline and context. At this point you are coming up with excuses for your denial of God's Sovereign authority.

 

I'm not stuck. You have to explain why all are not drawn or saved since it is you who is making the "all" universal.
Barry, it is very clear that all are not dragged to Jesus. In fact they are predestined to perdition. (See Judas) Since all I needed is one person, Judas, my assertion is made. Now, prove that all people are saved.

 

I'm sorry, Barry,
But I have to disagree yet again.

None of what you see as "Calvinism", at least as far as TULIP goes, is purely assumed.
It's read directly out of the Scriptures and understood from them.
With respect to "Total Depravity", or man's innate and natural unwillingness to come to God because of our love for sin and hatred of Him and his Son, this is easily proven by His words.

Please see:

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 10.
Psalms 14.
Psalms 53.

In fact, read all of the Psalms,
as the proof for mankind being stuck in our sins and loving it, is scattered among them.
Ecclesiastes is another good reference, as is Ephesians 4:17-19 and the Gospels where the Lord is telling the Pharisees that eating with dirty hands ( Matthew 15, Mark 7 ) is not what defiles men and to clean the inside of the cup, not the outside ( Matthew 23:25-28, Luke 11:39 ).

He once posted here, some years ago.

 

But then we see Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Acts of the Apostles 16:14, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:2, Titus 1:1 and many others re-iterating what the Lord Jesus had already taught...

That one must be chosen to salvation, i.e given to the Lord Jesus by God the Father, in order to believe on Him.
It didn't just simply stop in John 6, Barry.
Jesus Christ gave the same doctrines to Peter, Paul and all the apostles to preach and teach.
I'm not sure why you don't see it, but it's there.

In addition:

The Gospel is, according to Scripture, everlasting ( Revelation 14:16 ).
It was spoken to Abraham ( Galatians 3:8 ).
Moses wrote of Christ ( John 5:46 ).
As did David and Isaiah and others.

Keep reading, Barry.

The Gospel didn't start at the cross.
It was only carried out at the cross.

It spans the entire length and breadth of His word.

 

From my perspective,
The text doesn't say "all men" Barry.
It says "all".

" Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die." ( John 12:31-33 ).

In the AV, the word "men" is in italics, signifying that the translators added it "for continuity"...
Not because it was part of the Greek text, but because ( I think ) they thought it should read that way, but stopped short of actually adding the word "men" into the text as part of it.
Unlike other translations which don't make that distinction ( like the YLT, NIV, NASB, ESV ), at least the KJV and NKJV do, by adding italics.

In the Greek, the actual text says ( transliterated back into the English ), the following:
" And-I if-ever I-may-be-being-heightened / exalted out-of-the-land all I-shall be-drawing toward myself ".

Source: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh12.pdf

In other words, I think that the punctuation should be here,
with no itaclicized words:

" Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up, from the earth will draw all [] unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die." ( John 12:31-33 ).


To me,
This is in perfect harmony with Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8, as well as John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65 and John 17:2.
But that's just my opinion.

 

an attempt to permit and honor "full free will"

 

IMHO the idea, Doctrine, and Spiritual Reality of Total Depravity MUST precede SOUND understanding of all The ONE Eternal Covenant of God's Giving Grace.

 

All Kinds; not just Jews.