PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[Barry Johnson]

It is funny how you muddy the waters with verses taken out of context to create a false prooftext.

It reminds me of those who teach prevenient grace from John 6:44.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

RC Sproul has a good teaching series on being chosen by God in which he speaks to this verse.

The Greek word, translated as "draw" in this verse is translated "drag" in every other passage of the Bible. It turns out there is an instance in a Greek play where the play write uses the word for drawing water from a well, so many English translators have used "draw" in this instance.

RC makes the humorous note that he has never seen water jump into the bucket on its own accord. Even in this verse, the idea is that God does the work and drags (draws) the person up out of the well, like he would draw water up from a well. The water didn't come to the person, the water was pulled up from the well by the person drawing water from the well.
RC did a marvelous job, in my opinion, in explaining the verse.

"Man's Radical Fallenness" from Ligonier Ministries Man's Radical Fallenness by R.C. Sproul

Jeremiah 31:3 where the loved ones whom God “drew to Him” were cast out of His sight (Jer. 14:16, 7:15, 15:1

 

[Barry Johnson]

: you say :////Are all men, universally, dragged to Jesus, Barry?/// this isn't my dilemma lol . Your stuck with ALL in John 12.32 .
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ( Attract )

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

. John 12:32 eliminates all of the “elect” at one stroke. The Holy Spirit doesn’t “draw” just the elect. He draws “ALL MEN” (see John 16:8 and Acts 11:18), elect or non-elect.

 

[Alan Gross]

John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/John Gill/JG_Cause of God and Truth The.pdf

Though this text is not produced by the principal writers in the Arminian controversy, nor by the Remonstrants formerly, nor by Curcellaeus, nor by Limborch, nor by Whitby of late;

yet inasmuch as it is urged by others, in favor of universal redemption, that he who draws all men to him by his death, must needs die for all men;

it will be proper to consider the import of it, and the argument upon it.

And, 1. It. is certain, that the death of Christ, and the very kind of death he should die, is intimated by his being lifted up from the earth;

since the evangelist observes in the next verse, that this he said signifying what death he should die;

and it must be owned, that the drawing of all men to Christ, is here represented as a fruit of his death, or as what should attend it, or would follow upon it; and I ean uywqw, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

And therefore 2. The sense of these words pretty much depends on the meaning of the word draw: which either designs a collection of a large number of people to him, and about him, when he should be lifted on the cross, some against, others for him;

some to reproach, and others to bewail him;

or rather of the gathering of the people to him, through the ministry of the apostles;

and so of their being enabled, through the power of divine grace, to come unto him, and believe on him for eternal life and salvation;

for all those whom God has loved with an everlasting love, and Christ has died for, are, sooner or later, with loving-kindness drawn unto him;

in this sense Christ uses the word in this Gospel;

no man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him (John 6:44).

Now, 3. It is most evident, that all men, that is, every individual of human nature, every son and daughter of Adam, have not faith, are not drawn, or enabled to come to Christ, and believe in him.

There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to Christ, that, they might have life;

who, instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him;

nay, at this time, here was a world spoken of in the preceding verse, whose judgment, or condemnation, was now come;

and besides, there was then a multitude of souls in hell, who could not nor never will be drawn to Christ;

and a greater number still there will be at the last day, to whom, instead of drawing to him in this gracious way and manner, he will say, Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23, and 25:41).

Christ died, indeed, for all men who are drawn unto him;
but this is not true of all men that are, were, or shall be in the world.

Add to this that the men is not in the Greek text;

it is only panta, all;

and some copies read panta, all things;

so Austen read it formerly, and so it was in an ancient copy of Beza’s.

But not to insist on this; 4. By all men, is meant some of all sorts, all the elect of God, the children of God, that were scattered abroad; and particularly the Gentiles as well as the Jews, as Chrysostom and Theophylact interpret the words;

which interpretation is perfectly agreeable with ancient prophecy;

that when Shiloh was come (Gen. 49:10; Isa.11:10), to him should the gathering of the people, or Gentiles, be;

and with the context, an occasion of these words, which was this;

certain Greeks that were come up to worshiper the feast, desired to see Jesus;

of which when he was apprised by his disciples, he answered, that the hour was come in which he should be glorified, and that as a corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies, so should he: and though he tacitly intimates, that it was not proper to admit these Greeks into his presence now, yet when he was lifted up from the earth, or after his death, his Gospel should be preached to them as well as to the Jews;

and that large numbers of them should be drawn unto him, and brought to believe in him; agreeable to which sense of the words is Dr. Hammond’s paraphrase of them: "And I being crucified, will by that means, bring a great part of the whole world to believe on me, Gentiles as well as Jews." And to the same purpose is the note of Dr. Whitby on the text.

 

[Barry Johnson]

John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/John Gill/JG_Cause of God and Truth The.pdf

Though this text is not produced by the principal writers in the Arminian controversy, nor by the Remonstrants formerly, nor by Curcellaeus, nor by Limborch, nor by Whitby of late;

yet inasmuch as it is urged by others, in favor of universal redemption, that he who draws all men to him by his death, must needs die for all men;

it will be proper to consider the import of it, and the argument upon it.

And, 1. It. is certain, that the death of Christ, and the very kind of death he should die, is intimated by his being lifted up from the earth;

since the evangelist observes in the next verse, that this he said signifying what death he should die;

and it must be owned, that the drawing of all men to Christ, is here represented as a fruit of his death, or as what should attend it, or would follow upon it; and I ean uywqw, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

And therefore 2. The sense of these words pretty much depends on the meaning of the word draw: which either designs a collection of a large number of people to him, and about him, when he should be lifted on the cross, some against, others for him;

some to reproach, and others to bewail him;

or rather of the gathering of the people to him, through the ministry of the apostles;

and so of their being enabled, through the power of divine grace, to come unto him, and believe on him for eternal life and salvation;

for all those whom God has loved with an everlasting love, and Christ has died for, are, sooner or later, with loving-kindness drawn unto him;

in this sense Christ uses the word in this Gospel;

no man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him (John 6:44).

Now, 3. It is most evident, that all men, that is, every individual of human nature, every son and daughter of Adam, have not faith, are not drawn, or enabled to come to Christ, and believe in him.

There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to Christ, that, they might have life;

who, instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him;

nay, at this time, here was a world spoken of in the preceding verse, whose judgment, or condemnation, was now come;

and besides, there was then a multitude of souls in hell, who could not nor never will be drawn to Christ;

and a greater number still there will be at the last day, to whom, instead of drawing to him in this gracious way and manner, he will say, Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23, and 25:41).

Christ died, indeed, for all men who are drawn unto him;
but this is not true of all men that are, were, or shall be in the world.

Add to this that the men is not in the Greek text;

it is only panta, all;

and some copies read panta, all things;

so Austen read it formerly, and so it was in an ancient copy of Beza’s.

But not to insist on this; 4. By all men, is meant some of all sorts, all the elect of God, the children of God, that were scattered abroad; and particularly the Gentiles as well as the Jews, as Chrysostom and Theophylact interpret the words;

which interpretation is perfectly agreeable with ancient prophecy;

that when Shiloh was come (Gen. 49:10; Isa.11:10), to him should the gathering of the people, or Gentiles, be;

and with the context, an occasion of these words, which was this;

certain Greeks that were come up to worshiper the feast, desired to see Jesus;

of which when he was apprised by his disciples, he answered, that the hour was come in which he should be glorified, and that as a corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies, so should he: and though he tacitly intimates, that it was not proper to admit these Greeks into his presence now, yet when he was lifted up from the earth, or after his death, his Gospel should be preached to them as well as to the Jews;

and that large numbers of them should be drawn unto him, and brought to believe in him; agreeable to which sense of the words is Dr. Hammond’s paraphrase of them: "And I being crucified, will by that means, bring a great part of the whole world to believe on me, Gentiles as well as Jews." And to the same purpose is the note of Dr. Whitby on the text.

This is just nonsense with respect. John 6.44 is pre crucifixion. We have to question why some theologians miss this plain timeline . John 12.32 is talking of after the cross. Its strange why some are working backwards to John 6 . John 6 is old testament appropriation.If John 6 said " now this is how everyone is saved from now on and nothing changes . At all times no matter what happens the Father always Draws people " .

 

[Van]

The dirty little secret is that the gospel is the means by which all humans (who hear and understand) are drawn (attracted not compelled) to Christ Jesus. So the Calvinist ploy is to redefine all humans as all kinds of humans, and define "draw" as meaning compel. Thus the rewrite is "And I, if I be high and lifted up from the earth, will compel all kinds of people to Me." Not how it reads. Add it to the list of scripture rewrites Calvinism requires.

 

[Alan Gross]

Denial of The Scriptures is a pure, in-stage, bonafide hermeneutic;
just not for believers

 

[Alan Gross]

By human responsibility, we mean man's accountability to God for all of his actions.

adopted from: http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

The teaching of man's accountability is so general in the Bible that no Scripture citations are needed.

Anyone that is at all acquainted with the Bible should be able with no difficulty to find plenty of proof texts on this subject.

I. HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY AND THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

1. THE MEANING OF GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY. The absolute sovereignty of God means just what Paul affirms in Eph. 1:11, where he speaks of God as one that

"Worketh all things after the Counsel of His Will." ​

This teaches just what the Philadelphia Confession of Faith teaches when it says:

"God Hath Decreed in Himself from all Eternity,
by the Most Wise and Holy Counsel of His Own Will,
Freely and Unchangeably, all things whatsoever Comes to Pass."​

Other passages teaching the absolute sovereignty of God are as follows:

"Who Knoweth not in all these,
that the Hand of Jehovah hath Wrought this,
in whose Hand is the soul of every living thing,
and the breath of all mankind"
(Job 12:9,10).​

"Jehovah Hath Established His Throne in the Heavens;
and His Kingdom Ruleth over all"
(Psa. 103:19).​

"Whatsoever Jehovah Pleased,
that Hath He Done, in Heaven and in Earth,
in the seas and all deeps"
(Psa. 135:6).

"Who is He that Saith, and it Cometh to Pass,
when the Lord Commandeth it not?

Out of the Mouth of the Most High
Cometh there not evil and good?"
(Lam. 3:37,38).

"I Form the Light, and Create Darkness;
I Make Peace, and Create Evil;

I am Jehovah, that Doeth all these things"
(Isa. 45:7).

"I Am God, and there is none like Me;
Declaring the End from the Beginning,
and
from Ancient Times (Eternity Past)
things that are not yet Done;

saying, My Counsel Shall Stand,
and I Will Do all My Pleasure" (Isa. 46:10).

"All the inhabitants of the earth
are reputed as nothing;
and
He Doeth According to His Will in the Army of Heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth;

and none can stay His Hand,
or say unto Him, What doest thou?"
(Dan. 4:35).

"At that season Jesus Answered and Said,
I thank thee 0 Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth,

that Thou Didst Hide these things
from the wise and understanding,
and Didst Reveal them unto babes"
(Matt. 11:25).

"Jesus Answered him,
Thou couldest have no power against Me,
except it were Given thee from Above"
(John 19:11).

"I Will Have Mercy on whom I Have Mercy,
and I Will Have Compassion
on whom I Have Compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that Hath Mercy.

For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
For this very purpose did I Raise thee Up,
that
I Might Show in thee My Power,
and that My Name Might be Published abroad
in all the earth.

So then He Hath Mercy on whom He Will,
and whom He Will He Hardeneth"
(Rom. 9:15- 18).

See also Acts 2:2,3 and 4:27,28.​

 

[AustinC]

Draw means draw . Not dragged .

So, when you stand at the top of a well, do you tell "Hear water, water, water" and then hope the water will respond on its own and come up to your bucket?

The same greek word translated "draw" in John 6 is translated "dragged" in every other instance. Even in John 6 it requires God to throw down the bucket, scoop up the water, and "draw" the water up the well. The water doesn't do it itself upon being called.

Draw does mean draw. It means you don't do the work or respond by your own initiative.

 

[AustinC]

You need to explain that if you hold to the ' drag ' interpretation how it is that Jesus ' drags ' ALL MEN to him ? it really is your problem not mine . I believe it means ' attracts ' . So with ' attracts ' there is no ' universalism issue. You have the universalism issue.

Jesus drags person's from all nations, tribes and tongues.

Now, you explain your universalism for us.

 

[Alan Gross]

WHY MAN IS RESPONSIBLE.

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

The question is, then, how can man be responsible for his actions when all that he does has been ordained and decreed of God?

This is not a new question.

It is at least as old as the New Testament, and probably much older.

Paul anticipated this question from his readers when he penned the wonderful ninth chapter of Romans.

He said.

"Thou will say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will."

And Paul's reply was:

"Nay, but, 0 man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Paul's mentioning of this question and his reply show conclusively that Paul taught the absolute sovereignty of God.

Indeed his preceding words clearly teach it.

Paul made the reply that he did because he anticipated the question as coming from an objector.

When it comes as a reverent inquiry, it deserves more detailed consideration.

Paul's reply had to be brief because his time and purpose would not permit a lengthy discussion.

Our time permits and our purpose demands a fuller discussion. Man is responsible for his actions, notwithstanding the fact that God has decreed all that comes to pass, for at least three reasons:

1. God's Decree Concerning Sin is Not Causative but Permissive, Directive, Preventive, and Determinative. God decreed that sin should come in the world, for reasons that are fully known only to Him, but He decreed that it should come by man's own free choice. God does not compel man to sin, but He allows it. Man, and not God, is the efficient cause of sin; and for that reason man is responsible.

Before passing it needs to be remarked that no objections can be brought against the statement that God decreed that sin should come into the world that cannot be brought against God's actual permission of sin, unless the objector takes the position that God was powerless to prevent the entrance of sin. This would be a denial of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, and would render the objector unworthy of consideration here.

God's omnipotence and sovereignty teaches us that whatever God permits He permits because He wills to do so. And since God is immutable, His will has ever been the same. What He wills at any time He has willed from all eternity. Therefore, His will equals His purpose and His purpose equals His decree.

2. The Law of God and Not His Decree Fixes Man's Duty and Responsibility. The law of God is man's guide and standard.

This is God's revealed will. God's decree is His secret will. Man has nothing to do with this except to know and acknowledge the facts concerning it.

"The secret things belong unto Jehovah, our God; but things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29).

3. The Motive Back of Man's Sinning Makes Him Responsible.

Why does man sin?

Is it ever because he wants to do the will of God?

Nay, never so.

Why did men crucify Christ?

Was it because they believed that God had sent Him to die as a sin-bearer?

No. It was because they hated Him.

They crucified Him through wicked motives.

It is thus that man always sins.

Sin proceeds from man's love of darkness (John 3:19).

 

[Van]

This teaches just what the Philadelphia Confession of Faith teaches when it says:

"God Hath Decreed in Himself from all Eternity,
by the Most Wise and Holy Counsel of His Own Will,
Freely and Unchangeably, all things whatsoever Comes to Pass."

Thus according to Calvinism, God is the author of sin, and also according to Calvinism, God hypocritically punishes sinners for the sin He decreed. Pay no attention to this bogus doctrine.

 

[AustinC]

Thus according to Calvinism, God is the author of sin, and also according to Calvinism, God hypocritically punishes sinners for the sin He decreed. Pay no attention to this bogus doctrine.

To the contrary:
Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

Humans authored their own sin, which God chose to allow, according to His Sovereign plan.

 

[Van]

To the contrary:
Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

Humans authored their own sin, which God chose to allow, according to His Sovereign plan.

Very true but not the doctrine of Calvinism: "God Hath Decreed in Himself from all Eternity,
by the Most Wise and Holy Counsel of His Own Will,
Freely and Unchangeably, all things whatsoever Comes to Pass."

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus drags person's from all nations, tribes and tongues.

Now, you explain your universalism for us.

lol Does the verse say "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag person's from all nations, tribes and tongues "

Or

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.?

Or as your insisting on the idea of dragged.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag all men unto me.

universalism them . Bulinger wins .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus drags person's from all nations, tribes and tongues.

Now, you explain your universalism for us.

“That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.” John 1.9

 

[Barry Johnson]

So, when you stand at the top of a well, do you tell "Hear water, water, water" and then hope the water will respond on its own and come up to your bucket?

The same greek word translated "draw" in John 6 is translated "dragged" in every other instance. Even in John 6 it requires God to throw down the bucket, scoop up the water, and "draw" the water up the well. The water doesn't do it itself upon being called.

Draw does mean draw. It means you don't do the work or respond by your own initiative.

“Except the Father which hath sent me, DRAW HIM.” Note again the reference is not to any Christian who showed up on this earth after Acts 2

 

[AustinC]

Very true but not the doctrine of Calvinism: "God Hath Decreed in Himself from all Eternity,
by the Most Wise and Holy Counsel of His Own Will,
Freely and Unchangeably, all things whatsoever Comes to Pass."

Have they?

In that statement, please tell us where they say "God hath authored sin."

 

[AustinC]

lol Does the verse say "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag person's from all nations, tribes and tongues "

Or

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.?

Or as your insisting on the idea of dragged.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag all men unto me.

universalism them . Bulinger wins .

Yes. Jesus drags people to himself from all nations, tribes and tongues. That is what the verse tells us.

 

[AustinC]

“That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.” John 1.9

Are you interpreting this verse to say every man is saved?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes. Jesus drags people to himself from all nations, tribes and tongues. That is what the verse tells us.

Ok let's see if that's what it says .
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.

No as you can see ,it does not .