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Any church whose origin was in Medieval or modern times is not the church that Christ set up
- Thread starter Alan Gross
- Start date
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
According to you having 'liked' this quote, you don't care who The Rock is.
He knows that.
Don't play games.
Not,as to the Lord, he does not see the label of the Church at all, bit if those there assembled hold to right Jesus and right Gospel!
What do these verses have to do with a church being independent or not
And while we are at it - please expound on "independent"
Do you believe that Baptist churches affiliated with groups such as SBC, GARBC, ABC CBA - BBF, ect -
Do you believe that those local churches are independent?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Church Discipline protects the right Jesus and right Gospel in His churches from those not serious about God's Word or His Business.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Here, Jesus is Speaking to 'her', His Divinely Organized church body, made from the 'material' of having been believers baptized by John The Baptist.
The"keys" to the Kingdom is the Gospel, Given to His church(es) as a Divine Institution.
His church(es) are self-governing.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus' self-governing churches are where God's tithe belongs and nowhere else.
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
That includes 'conventions' or groups.
Membership to a fellowship or convention or association does not negate a church's self-governing, depending upon whether that other bunch 'says yes they do' and the church body agrees to their usurpation.
Yes and no -
The most important thing is to have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour.
Regardless of what church we are a member of - (and that could include the RCC) and how we are Baptized -
those two things dont make one bit of difference - as far as our salvation is concerned.
Now, is the Lord concerned about these two (as well as many other issues) of course he is.
Are they on on the same level as salvation, of course not
Then what is the importance of the mode of Baptism - What is the reason - it is 1) simply a symbolism of our salvation
and (2) as well as a public profession of our faith
nope - still dont see it
and now you mention thithe - why are you bringing the Old Testament into this discussion
Where did Jesus command for members of NT churches to tithe?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
THE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISM
A. The Subject: Only a believer (born again).
B. The Mode: Only by immersion.
C. The Design: Only to symbolize the burial and resurrection of Christ.
D. The Authority: Only a church of Jesus Christ.
Only One Baptism
In a literal sense the Bible teaches only one baptism, that is, one kind of baptism, as a New Testament ordinance. This is immersion in water of a born-again believer by the ministry of a New Testament church for the purpose of providing a symbol or figure of the faith professed. Other literal immersions, bathings, or washings are mentioned in the New Testament, but the Greek uses a different noun from the one used for New Testament baptism.
Jesus spoke of His sufferings as a baptism, but of course this is figurative language. John said that Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit and in fire, but this too is figurative, as baptism is properly a dipping in water. The first Baptist church in Jerusalem was once for all figuratively baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, thus receiving for all time divine certification that this is the kind of church in which God dwells on earth.
It remains true that for New Testament purposes there is literally only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), and therefore our text (Colossians 2:12) refers to it literally as "the baptism." The definite article is used also in Romans 6:4, "we were buried with him through the baptism with reference to the death."
Authorized Administration
Certainly the only ultimate and absolute Authority is God Himself, and certainly all Christians will agree in theory that baptism, as well as every other act of Christian service, must be in submission to His authority to be acceptable in His sight. Differences arise, however, with regard to subordinate authority in administration.
John the Baptist was a man sent from God with authority to baptize (John 1:6, 33), and the first disciples of Jesus got their authority directly from Him (John 4:1, 2). When Jesus went back to heaven did He commit administrative authority to anyone in particular, or did He leave it to be assumed by anyone in general?
Subordinate authority may be explicit, implicit, or assumed. Both explicitly and implicitly Jesus committed to His church the responsibility of making disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to observe all His commandments. (Matt. 28:18-20.) Attempts by other persons to exercise this authority are assumption based on presumption.
Practically all Christendom has substantially agreed for over 19 centuries that Jesus committed to His church the administrative authority for carrying on His work. For the identification of this church, see chapters on "Christ's Church" and "Baptist Perpetuity."
In recent years, the most destructive attacks upon church authority have been made by advocates of the universal invisible church theory, according to which all saved persons are members of this imaginary church. But if Jesus commissioned disciples merely as disciples to administer baptism, then sprinklers, pourers, and Campbellites, not to mention Catholics (or at least genuine disciples among them), have equal authority with Baptists, since there are almost certainly some saved people in all these groups.
On the other hand, if by some feat of mental acrobatics the Baptist apologist for alien immersion insists that only the authority is unimportant, while the scriptural form, subject, and motive of baptism must be maintained, it need only be said that both subject and motive are unscriptural where divine authority is flouted. In alien immersion, nothing remains but an empty form.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Mathew 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin.
But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
So which Baptist church were the Pharises a member of?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You don't see The Lord's new testament church as self-governing?
CHURCH CHARACTERISTICS.
Was the First Church a Baptist Church?
14. The First Church at Jerusalem Was Complete in Itself With Christ as the Only Head. There was no Pope, or Bishop, or Presbytery, or Conference there or elsewhere, to which it gave the least heed, or to which or whom it owed the least allegiance.
In Acts 1:14, we see they attended to their own business in their own way.
Peter could only suggest the business, and others could only nominate the proper persons for the office.
The whole church, directed by the Lord (verse 24), decided the matter.
That is just the way Baptist churches do today, and they only.
15. There Was No One Man in Authority (Matthew 20:20-26 ; Mark 10:35-45; Luke 22:24-27; Eph. 1:22).
16. There Were No Elect Few, Called Presbytery, Ruling Elders, etc., known in that day, and all who are thus ruled are not churches of Jesus Christ, for in them no one rules, but "all are brethren" Acts 20:28: Romans 12:8; 1 Timothy 5: 17; Hebrews 13:7-17, etc., are Episcopal colorings.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Yes, Lexicon can change and have items added.
That is why they are not the rule of Faith and Practice.
Jesus used a word that had usage and understanding, then; not 1800 years later.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Jesus is The Law-Giver.
Jesus Gave The Law for The New Testament.
The Pharisees were clearly breaking The Command of God.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
According to me "liking" a post??? I am not a child, so I am going to ignore that juvenile game you are playing.
I am asking what or who you believe this "rock" to be. It is a very simple question and I really do not understand why you find it do difficult to answer.
I will help by telling you my belief because I am not ashamed.
I believe the Rock upon which Christ establishes His Church is Christ Himself. I believe this for a few reasons. This was the content of Peter's confession. But also, He is this Cornerstone, the Stone that the builders rejected.
Therefore a true church is built upon this Rock with Christ (not man, not a handful of pet doctrines, not a pope, not a denomination) as her Head.
What or who do you believe this "rock" to be?
Why are you so ashamed to answer for your faith?
Salty said: ↑
So which Baptist church were the Pharisees a member of?
But you did not answer my question
If you want to talk about the Lord commanding church members to tithe -
please show verses in the NT which direct us to tithe.
So which Baptist church were the Pharisees a member of?
But you did not answer my question
If you want to talk about the Lord commanding church members to tithe -
please show verses in the NT which direct us to tithe.
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That is NOT what I said-
What I said is that the verses you gave is not about a church being self-governing.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I showed you and JonC, Jesus, and answered your questions, by Him.
His churches are The Apple of His Eye.
His Bride.
The Song of Solomon refers to His Old Testament Faithful and His New Testament Faithful.
So does The 144,000.
Unfaithful is another subject.
They are The Kingdom of God and The General Assembly in Heaven, vs The Church of The Firstborn (those who have Faithfully Assembled and Followed God's Commands to Bring Him Glory in Worship, as Recorded in His Word).