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Featured A Tale of Two Calvinisms

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Dec 6, 2020.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Of course you don't see it, it can't be seen with the eye:

    20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17 [Romans 14:17; 2 Peter 1:10-11]

    Neither can it be touched with the hand:

    18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
    19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them;
    20 for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;
    21 and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
    22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12
     
    #41 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2020
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Jews were seeking the Kingdom (this was Nicodemus's express concern). The Bible (I provided a verse in Matthew, but there are numerous other examples) has Jesus Christ stating the gospel of the Kingdom. The parables are about this Kingdom. So I do think it is very safe to say that the gospel (per Christ) is this Kingdom's arrival.

    This does not discount information about salvation.

    Yes, the passages telling what this Kingdomis (what the good news is about) can be found throughoutthe OT. Read Isaiah and about this KingdomGod is bringinging into the world.
     
    #42 JonC, Dec 9, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Primary theme of the NT is the Cross and insurrection of Lord Jesus!
     
    #43 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Who would be an example of a known Calvinist teacher/pastor who is not saved but can expound the Calvinism?
     
    #44 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Cross and resurrection are THE central themes of the NT, as defined by the Apostles themselves!
     
    #45 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The message of the Kingdom is important, but that is the major emphasis of NT Wright and others, not the NT Apostles themselves!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, who are those who hold to Calvinism and are still lost in their sins?
     
    #47 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Kingdom is here, but not yet in full until the Second Coming...
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Like a starling flying over, 5 quips in a row with no scripture.
     
    #49 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2020
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The message of the Kingdom is the message of Christ. I am glad NT Wright recognized this, but I'm sure he is not alone. This is the point of Isaiah (the Kingdom God will bring forth) and the message Jesus spoke.

    The Cross is vital. But the Cross divorced from the Kingdom is worthless. The Cross was God reconciling the World to Himself. This re-birth is how we enter the Kingdom.

    Read John 2-3.

    They are some of those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7. I have met Calvinists who do not love their brother, who only insult and malign those Christians who disagree with them. One can hold correct doctrine yet be unsaved. Salvation is eternally more than the cognitive acceptance of doctrine. It is a re-birth, it is God drawing a man to Himself in Christ and making that person a new creation.
    Yep.
    No. The primary them is the reconciliation of man to God.
     
    #50 JonC, Dec 9, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Take out the Cross and Resurrection, and all of the rest of the NT can go into the trash!
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2020
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This is sooooo dishonest on your part, in no way is @JonC trying to "take out the Cross and Resurrection"....
     
    #52 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2020
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not talking about taking out anything. I am talking about the fact that Jesus' gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom (that is what the Bible says He taught).

    What did Nicodemus ask? What was Jesus' response? Jesus equated being "saved" with "entering" or "seeing" the Kingdom of God. This is in the Gospel of John. In the Gospel of Matthew we also read that Jesus proclaimed the gospel of the Kingdom.

    In Mark we read Jesus proclaiming “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” That is the gospel. The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand.

    Jesus' words did not negate the cross (the cross had not even occurred when He proclaimed the gospel). But you do not have to deny the gospel in order to affirm the cross. Both are true and both are vital. But the gospel itself is not the cross (per Scripture). Men are not forgiven just for the sake of forgiveness. Men are not saved for the sake of being saved. Men are saved for a purpose (1 Peter 1) and this purpose is to do the works which have been preordained for them to do (kingdom work).
     
    #53 JonC, Dec 9, 2020
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Mat_12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
     
    #54 MB, Dec 9, 2020
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't see Calvinism as being divided among itself, just that some so not seem to be Christians at all (by their behavior) while others have been used in great ways by God.
     
    #55 JonC, Dec 9, 2020
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    To me, there's been a fair amount of poor behavior within just the past few weeks on this forum, on both sides.

    I recently told a friend that I was messaging that things can actually stop before they hit the keyboard...
    It's up to each of us to edit before hitting "enter".;)
     
    #56 Dave G, Dec 9, 2020
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Ask David Taylor if He thinks Calvinist are believing the same as he does. There are so many different types of Calvinist I never know if I'm even speaking to one or not. There is 1,2,3,4, and 5 different types because of the tulip so many only believe one to Three doctrines of grace. None of them preach the gospel of Christ. They all claim election with out scriptural support. It's all Philosophical. Philosophy is not the gospel.Nor has it ever been truth
    MB
     
    #57 MB, Dec 9, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. We cannot know what is in another person's heart. Sometimes Christians are ungodly, or act in a manner associated with the flesh. We can determine their spiritual state (they are disobedient and walking in the flesh) but not the state of their salvation (God may be working in them, disciplining them...something that God does not do with the lost). I'm sure we have all acted contrary to the Spirit at times, but hopefully it is not the mark of our lives.

    This board has been a blessing in that we have the opportunity to discuss matters of faith with people who agree and disagree with us. Sometimes it can also be a stumbling block. Very often the true character of a person - all doctrine aside - is revealed by that person's interactions (especially in online forums where so many think it doesn't matter).
     
    #58 JonC, Dec 9, 2020
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...doesn't even come close to the confusion that exists within Dispensationalism.
     
    #59 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2020
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  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You just can't understand it.
    MB
     
    #60 MB, Dec 9, 2020
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