A Tale of Two Calvinisms

[JonC]

Please give an example of your point that " Calvinism tends to create a very ungodly spirit when applied to lost church people."

No. And I'll go one better to my no - if you are unaware of any Calvinists acting in a un-Christian manner then I will not be the one to call them to your attention. That would be gossip, but more than that it would be to prop up a few people who are best ignored.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, actually more emphasis is made over the Kingdom. This is the theme throughout the Old Testament and into the New. It is the them throughout all four Gospels and most of Jesus' parables. And it is the theme throughout most of the epistles (especially Romans and the letters to the church in Corinth).

You are wrong on this point, brother, and may want to look at the number of times the kingdom is mentioned in Scripture. The kingdom has always been the gospel and the Cross the place of reconciliation.

The Gospel at its very heart is Pauline Justification, on how lost sinners can be reconciled back to Holy God!

 

[JonC]

Did God cause the fall then in your understanding?

No. Not "cause". That is my point. I do not arrive at TULIP via Calvinistic philosophy. I do not believe that God decreed Adam to sin. That said, I do believe that Adam's sin was predestined (by God's foreknowledge), and ordained (via God's act of creation) and a part of God's plan.

 

[JonC]

The Gospel at its very heart is Pauline Justification, on how lost sinners can be reconciled back to Holy God!

I would hope that the gospel is at the very heart of all of our doctrines. But that does not make all of our doctrines the gospel itself.

 

[Yeshua1]

No. And I'll go one better to my no - if you are unaware of any Calvinists acting in a un-Christian manner then I will not be the one to call them to your attention. That would be gossip, but more than that it would be to prop up a few people who are best ignored.

Again, are you referring to how at times our critics call us "smug and arrogant"

 

[Van]

Just a brief aside, when God places an individual into Christ, He is transferring the individual from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. (Colossians 1:13-14) Please carry on with distinctions between Kingdom, and Christ...

 

[Yeshua1]

No. Not "cause". That is my point. I do not arrive at TULIP via Calvinistic philosophy. I do not believe that God decreed Adam to sin. That said, I do believe that Adam's sin was predestined (by God's foreknowledge), and ordained (via God's act of creation) and a part of God's plan.

Does God , per your view, elects us unto salvation based upon foreknowledge or that He determines and causes that to occur?

 

[Yeshua1]

I would hope that the gospel is at the very heart of all of our doctrines. But that does not make all of our doctrines the gospel itself.

Justification itself is what made a reformation!

 

[kyredneck]

Did God cause the fall then in your understanding?

No. Not "cause". That is my point. I do not arrive at TULIP via Calvinistic philosophy. I do not believe that God decreed Adam to sin. That said, I do believe that Adam's sin was predestined (by God's foreknowledge), and ordained (via God's act of creation) and a part of God's plan.

I believe God 'provoked' Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden of Eden, like he did the jews:

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

 

[JonC]

I believe God 'provoked' Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden of Eden, like he did the jews:

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

Scripture does not give me enough to agree or disagree, but it makes sense. If so, perhaps Satan's fall is related to a desire to be like God towards mankind.

 

[JonC]

Does God , per your view, elects us unto salvation based upon foreknowledge or that He determines and causes that to occur?

You are presenting an anthropomorphic distinction that cannot be answered. Man cannot know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. We cannot divide up attributes of God and then determine orders to God's "reasoning" or "choosing" because these would not apply to an immutable and omniscient God.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are presenting an anthropomorphic distinction that cannot be answered. Man cannot know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. We cannot divide up attributes of God and then determine orders to God's "reasoning" or "choosing" because these would not apply to an immutable and omniscient God.

Does God choose us before we choose Him?

 

[JonC]

Does God choose us before we choose Him?

Just how do you think God "chooses"?

 

[Yeshua1]

Just how do you think God "chooses"?

Based upon His own good will and pleasure!

 

[church mouse guy]

I do not understand how you can believe that God foreknew everything, Created everything, but the future is not predestined to unfold as God knew and created it to unfold. Perhaps it is just perception, or more likely that I'm just not the sharpest tool in the box.

Do you believe that God knew, before God created the world, the outcome of contingent events (like who would and would not believe, for example)? If not, then perhaps that is where I am not following (many believe God knew all that is to be known, but our decisions are unknown prior to us making them).

There is also the possibility that we believe the same thing (on this point) but are speaking about this differently. I just want to make sure we are not talking past one another.

Predestined to me means that God set it up that way. God just allows some things. He allows us to talk here but He did not necessarily decide that we would be doing so before the universe was created.

I could not be a Calvinists because I could never win an election. Is a hyper-Calvinist someone who believes that some people are made for hell?

 

[Yeshua1]

Predestined to me means that God set it up that way. God just allows some things. He allows us to talk here but He did not necessarily decide that we would be doing so before the universe was created.

I could not be a Calvinists because I could never win an election. Is a hyper-Calvinist someone who believes that some people are made for hell?

Per the Bible, we ALL are bound for hell unless God intervenes!

 

[JonC]

Predestined to me means that God set it up that way. God just allows some things. He allows us to talk here but He did not necessarily decide that we would be doing so before the universe was created.

I could not be a Calvinists because I could never win an election. Is a hyper-Calvinist someone who believes that some people are made for hell?

I think that we agree on a lot, and where we disagree is philosophical on this topic.

I think that we agree that all things will unfold as God knows they will unfold. Where I see God "setting it up" that way is that knowing would would occur God actively created everything (God at least ordained everything to occur as it would, not that it should occur that way, but that it would and in so doing was a part of God's predetermined plan). Where I differ from Calvinism is in "getting there".

So I would say that God ultimately caused everything to exist, knowing what would occur, but God did not cause the choices that people make (even though these choices are themselves predetermined).

 

[JonC]

Per the Bible, we ALL are bound for hell unless God intervenes!

So those chosen from the foundation of the earth are bound for hell?

 

[Yeshua1]

So those chosen from the foundation of the earth are bound for hell?

when born yes, as they still must be born again, not eternal Justification as Hypers hold with!

 

[kyredneck]

Per the Bible, we ALL are bound for hell unless God intervenes!

It'd be nice if you'd quote "per the Bible" where exactly it specifies HELL we're all bound for.