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Featured Does God Prevent Some from Hearing The Gospel?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There are some who believe that the Gospel Message is only understood by the "elect", while God has hidden this from those who are the "non-elect", as they are not chosen unto salvation. The passage in Isaiah 6, and its quotations in the New Testament, is much used to show this. But, as we shall see from the evidence of Scriprure itself, this is not the case.

    “And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” (Isaiah 6:9-10) KJV

    In the Hebrew there are a number of “imperatives” used, which are commands or instructions.

    “Go..tell…make the hearts of these people fat...make their ears heavy…shut their eyes”, etc, etc.

    The verbs here are in the second person, singular, and of the imperative mode, so that Isaiah is Commanded to perform the actions named.

    John, in His Gospel quotes these words from Isaiah, in this form;

    “But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” (John 12:38-40)

    In John’s Gospel in the Greek, which differs from both the Hebrew, as well as the (LXX), we have the 3rd person, singular, and in the indicative mood, thereby making the actions refer directly to God, and not the Prophet Isaiah, as it is in the Hebrew OT passage.

    Now, when the passage from Isaiah is used by the Lord Jesus Christ, as in Matthew. He does not say the same that John does, by making the actions refer to God. Or, as the Hebrew has it, where Isaiah is the one to take the actions. Instead, the passage in Matthew, (and again in Acts 28, where Paul quotes Isaiah) Jesus uses a completely different text of Isaiah. Here is Matthew:

    “And the disciples came and said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? He answered and said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” (Matthew 13:10-15)

    In Matthew, the Greek, as in Acts 28:25-28, it is quite different, and not quoted from the Hebrew, but agrees with the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX), where the verbs are in the 3rd person, plural, and of the indicative mood, so that it is the people themselves, who perform the actions named. In verse 13, Jesus says, “hoti”, (because, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because”), which is in response to the peoples hardness; and not “hina” (in order that, “so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive”), as used by Mark and Luke, as the intended cause.

    Here are the words in the LXX:

    “And he said, “Go, and say to this people: ‘You will listen by listening, but you will not understand, and looking you will look, but you will not perceive.’ For this people’s heart has grown fat, and with their ears they have heard heavily, and they have shut their eyes so that they might not see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn—and I would heal them.” (LXX)

    Jesus, in not using the Hebrew of Isaiah as we know it, has changed the actions of the passage, from a direct Command to the Prophet Isaiah, himself to perform; or, what John says, whereby it is God Who performs the actions. Instead, what Jesus has done, is to make the hearers themselves the causers of their own actions, “their eyes they have closed”. It is the wilful rejection of the preaching of the Gospel Message, by some of those who hear it, that damns them, and has nothing to do with God in any way preventing any from “hearing and believing”.

    Three passages in the New Testament make this very clear.

    John 5:39-40, “ Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And you will not come to me, that ye may have life”.

    Not, that they “cannot come”, as though prevented by some external force.

    Acts 13:46, “And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles”.

    Again, it was the Jews who rejected the Gospel Message, and considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. Not God, or anyone else. These are self-actions.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, “and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    Here we have those who hear the Truth of the Gospel Message, that is for their salvation, but themselves refuse to accept this Truth, and thrust it from them, as in Acts 13:46. It is then, that God “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion”, so that they believe their lies. These refused to believe the Gospel Message, because their “pleasure” was in their unrighteous deeds of darkness, that is, their sinful lives!

    The quotation in Mark’s Gospel is quite different to any of the other times this passage from Isaiah is quoted in the New Testament.

    “But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’ ” (Mark 4:10-12)

    The passage in Mark’s Gospel, is alone of the Four Gospels, and Acts, where it says, “Lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them. ”. Which is following neither the Hebrew, nor the LXX. Mark’s quote is more in agreement with the Aramaic Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel, where we read, “and repent, and it shall be forgiven them.”.

    “And He said, Go, and tell this people, who are diligently hearing, but understand not, and see diligently, but know not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and darken their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and repent, and it shall be forgiven them.” (Targum)
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 3:22-24
    Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I am not inclined to accept that the Apostle John misunderstood the Holy Spirit and wrote a “non-God breathed” gospel, but you have correctly divided the word of God to correct the Apostle.

    Yes, John changed the words ... I believe that God inspired him to.
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    On the actual subject, I think that God ALLOWS many the freedom to not hear the gospel (as their heart desires) and grants a few “ears to hear”.
     
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  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    based on exactly what? Where in the NT does it ever say, that God has "favored" a certain people to become His "elect"? In the OT it is very clear that God did "favour" the Jews and made them His people. If, as even the Reformed believe, based on Mark 16:15, that the Gospel is to be presched to the entire human race. Then it is a grave error to suggest, that God would allow for the Gospel to be "heared" by the entire human race, The Good News that Jesus is THE Saviour, and then "blind" some to this Great Truth! This would make God out to be very unfair, which is a non-starter!
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    God is God, and therefore is within His own rights, to do as He pleases. It is evident from Jesus own words in Matthew, that He did not choose to use the Hebrew text of Isaiah, which was "harder" in its application, and for the purpose of the time of Isaiah. The hebrew version that underlines the Greek LXX, is different, where those who "hear" the Gospel are themselves responsible for "shutting their own eyes, ears, hearts", etc. This version is what Paul also uses at the close of Acts 28, which some Jews believed, and others did not. Paul could have easily done what John did, and quoted from the MT Hebrew text, but, like Jesus, goes instead to the text behind the LXX. Such is the Great Love and Mercy of our truly Wonderful God, to hell-bound sinners!
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the Word from the Lord, but don't you have anything to say?
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    If God were “fair”, He would send us all to hell
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If total spiritual inability was not a bogus doctrine, then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables to control the timing of His gospel revelation.(Matthew 13) If total spiritual inability was not a bogus doctrine, God would not have need to hardened the hearts of the non-believing Jews in Romans 11. If total spiritual inability was not a bogus doctrine, the people in another town would not have repented based on seeing miracles.(Luke 10:13) If total spiritual inability was not bogus, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been "entering" the kingdom. If total spiritual inability was not bogus doctrine, there would be no one willing to receive mercy found in Romans 9:16. If total spiritual inability was not bogus doctrine, there would not be many who seek to enter through the narrow gate. (Luke 13:24)

    The more you look, the more you find. :)
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since not everyone is presented with the gospel, God allows people to live and die without the opportunity for salvation.

    Since some people harden their hearts by the practice of sin, God allows some people to loose the opportunity for salvation before they physically die.

    Who is man to say to God, you should have instilled faith in all people in order for you to be fair. Of course God's plan is to choose for Himself people whose faith He credits as righteousness. And it is fair and just for all people to face God's perfect justice in the afterlife.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God speaks a much better word.

    Romans 8:27-30
    And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
     
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  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    not the point here. There is no NT text that says that ANY human is more important to Him than others, which is what the teaching of "election", or, rather, "elitism", as taught by Reformed, is
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    This is speaking about the saved, not all the world, so this is expected. I see no where in Scripture where anyone is "elected to salvation"
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I notice that you have not directly responded to the OP?
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    RC Sproul tells the story of teaching a class and a paper came due. One student asked for an extension and had an excuse for why he failed to turn in the paper. RC gave him an extension.

    The next paper came and now 5 people asked for an extension. RC gave them an extension.

    The next paper came and now over half the class asked for an extension. This time RC said no. The class was in an uproar. They said it was not fair since RC had given extensions the other two times.

    RC stopped them and declared, "You want fair? I'll give you fair. All late papers will now receive an F as the justly deserved.

    If people want fairness, then they want unmerciful justice. You break the law, you pay the penalty for breaking the law. You want fairness...then prepare to die.

    Indeed, if God acted in fairness, we would all reside in hell.
     
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 25:32-46
    Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the teaching of "election" in the reformed theology, makes God a "respecter of persons", and as Peter says in Acts 10:34, "Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism"!
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about BEFORE a person is saved!
     
  19. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Noone contends for “more important”. Its by Gods grace. Salvation is a rescue operation sent by God from heaven

    Its mercy and grace
     
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  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I never dobut that salvation, from start to finish, IS the Work of God: the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. As NO human being can ever, in and of themselves even desire to be saved! The initial "conviction" and thereafter, is God the Holy Spirit, though this can be "rejected" by the person.
     
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