Featured Individual Election and Corporate Election

This was not election. Prove he was one of the elect.
MB

 

Sorry, I just thought you wanted proof of "individual election", so I presented the election/choosing of "individuals". If you want proof of MY Election, then just wait until I am GLORIFIED and then you will see that I was "foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified" (as a package deal by the will of God).

 

He did, everyone was too busy "waiting to speak" to take the time to "hear it".

 

Rev_3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
MB

 

It is sad that you reject what the Bible tells you for I provide passages for you to read and understand.

 

[Romans 2:25-29 NASB]
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter [of the Law] and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

I agree.
This is how the Mosaic Covenant worked. It was a National Covenant into which the whole nation was accepted at its inauguration, and into which a Jewish girl was born and a Jewish boy was admitted upon circumcision. Yet the entire family of Rahab was welcomed into the covenant by the choice of God and will of Rahab, and the heart of foreign-born Ruth proved her more a child of the Covenant than her Covenant-born mother-in-law, so she, too, was welcomed into the corporate election.

Of course, as many of the evil kings are living examples ... not all Jews are "children of the Promise".

The New Covenant, however, is a far better covenant and is not based on any "corporate election". Christ came to make men CHILDREN of God ... God has no Grandchildren in the New Covenant.

 

So far I can agree with this (and follow the logic).

This I do not follow the innate logic of.

Using your "Presidential Pardon" Analogy ... A man can be sitting on Death Row in a cell. At 12:00 noon on January 4, the pen of the president affixes his signature to the pardon that has been typed since yesterday. At 12:30 on January 4, the man is still sitting in his cell because official orders for his release have not been received, however, it is now a certainty that his execution will not take place on February 1. Has he been Pardoned even though he is not yet Free?

Moving beyond HUMAN analogies to DIVINE JUSTICE ... EXACTLY WHEN are charges brought against a man and by whom? As I read scripture, "it is appointed to men once to die, AND AFTER THIS COMES JUDGEMENT" ... so there is no opportunity to present charges against a man while he lives, thus God's individual election need only be delivered prior to a man's death to be in effect at the time of his judgement.

 

Sorry, no. If we're creating caricatures out of whole cloth, here's a better one: a quadriplegic man is wheeled up to a table where there are two cups. God says, "One of these contains a lethal liquid and the other an elixir which will completely cure your paralysis and extend your life indefinitely. I am about to pour one of these cups into you. Which will it be?"

 

.........

 

That's not necessarily true, one can be a confessional Arminian and believe no such thing.
Arminianism does not require a belief that individual "election" occurs prior to creation.
You are mistaken.
Theoretically..........true five-point Calvinism wouldn't necessarily require such a belief either.
Although most Calvinists would think so, it is not inherent in the system. There are consistently Calvinist models that are infralapsarian or sublapsarian in their viewpoints.

You understand little of either of those Theological systems and you never speak intelligently on either one.

I am neither Arminian, nor Calvinist.............of any stripe. But, you truly understand neither system.

 

God doesn't ask you which one it will be. (You watched too many matrix movies)
The person is a quadriplegic and cannot change this. Either God chooses to heal them or they die as a quadriplegic.

People are dead in their trespasses and sins. They cannot change their deadness or pick any other option.
Jesus says that those whom the Father has given him to be his sheep will hear his voice and follow. Just as Lazarus heard Jesus call him out of death, so everyone whom God makes alive will hear Jesus voice and follow.

 

I agree.

As an strange aside, If God did bother to ask, the man would choose the poison (Genesis 3:8 and John 3:19-20).

 

Trying one more time ...

1. I agree that "if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect", so there is no confusion this far.
2. You say that a person chosen for election, "if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them" ... but I ask ... HOW? Who would bring the charge? Where would someone bring it? Judgement takes place after death, at the Judgement seat, so is that not the only place where a charge against anyone could be made?
3. Why must there be no delay? Romans 8:29-30 claim that we were "foreknown" and "predestined" before we were "called", and we were "called" before we were "justified" and "glorified". So I cannot escape that there is an "already in the distant past" aspect to our salvation ... we were saved before we were born. There is a "present" aspect to our salvation ... we are saved and our salvation is still unfolding. There is a future aspect to our salvation ... we shall be saved completely when we are glorified and we shall be with Him and like Him. I cannot help but feel that there is definitely a delay. God loves us just as we are, but God loves us too much to leave us there.

 

well Jesus named Lazarus by name, for if he had just yelled come out, entire cementary would have emptied out!

 

Respectfully,
I see the Scriptures declaring the analogy to be somewhat like this:

A quadriplegic man whose accident was a result of his own foolish and willful actions,
is sitting in his chair...completely unable to see, hear, talk or lift even a finger in response to God and doesn't even know He's in the same room with him.

God speaks a word, heals him completely, and the formerly quadriplegic man begins to notice the Lord, recognizes that He healed him, gets up out of his chair, falls on his face before Him, and worships Him in gratitude for giving him something that he was never expecting;
It was the total opposite of what he deserved, and he didn't have any control over it to begin with.


I remember when I as a younger believer, I thought that basically what you've quoted above was the way it worked as well;
Now I no longer do.
But that took many years for me to understand from my studies, and it didn't come to me overnight.


May the Lord bless you in many ways, sir.