Featured Individual Election and Corporate Election

I agree with and affirm all of that as stated, although I suspect we understand the basis for God's gracious actions differently. That is probably why you fail to address the faith mentioned in verses 12 through 15 of Ephesians 1 to which I specifically drew your attention.

Sorry, that's simply not true. God gave no grace to Adam when He asked Him "Where are you? Are you guilty of sin?" You are reading this notion into a passage that does not contain, picture, suggest, or imply it in any way whatsoever. Grace appears later, after Adam's confession of sin and God's expression of judgment and promise.

Always happy to discuss the Scriptures, isn't that why we're here?

 

Here are two and a half dozen articles supporting HeirofSalvation's point, which isn't "rubbish." Read and learn.
Election: Individual vs. Corporate | Monergism

And another suggestion for you:
5 Reasons to Avoid Ad Hominem Arguments | Jon Miltimore

 

Sure God gave grace to Adam. He promised the Second Adam to him, the Messiah, the promised on. This was a tremendous work of grace to Adam, which blesses us all.
As for Ephesians 1, I don't know what point you are actually attempting to make.

Ephesians 1:3-23
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

It seems you ignore all the things God does, which cause the effect. It seems you miss the fact that faith itself is a gift which causes our belief (the effect of faith).

So, once again, thank you for bringing up Ephesians 1. It makes my point perfectly. I honestly don't see that you have any argument to make from this passage other than to agree with me.

 

Again, this grace was given AFTER Adam responded to God's call and confessed his nakedness and sin, not before.

I am observing Paul's point, which is that all the spiritual blessings we have in the heavenly places are ours "in Him." We are not "in Him" until we "hope in Christ," and hearing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, believe in Him. The Holy Spirit seals us "in Him" at that point, not before.

... we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

There is simply no suggestion in Ephesians 1 of the kind of cause and effect you want to see. Nothing in the letter suggests that God "causes" saving faith, or that saving faith is a gift given or withheld by God on a whim. Ephesians 2:8 clearly separates pistis (faith) and doron (gift) through the use of gendered nouns and pronouns which do not match. The text is quite clear: saving faith is not a gift. Salvation by grace through faith is the gift of God; salvation by grace through faith is not of works lest any man should boast.

 

From one of the first links: “The Calvinistic mind sees election as bringing about the transition from unbelief to belief, hence making unbelievers the object of election. The Arminian says that this transition is made by a free act of will; election then is an act of God directed toward the believer after the transition has been made” (“Conditional Election,” in Grace Unlimited, ed. Clark H. Pinnock [Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship, 1975], p. 72.

Again, "The Arminian says that this transition [from unbelief to belief] is made by a free act of will; election then is an act of God directed toward the believer after the transition [to belief] has been made." After belief is not "before creation."

I'll take that bridge now, thanks.

 

This is the relevant sentence Van.
That does not exclude numerous possible answers:
1.) Theoretically, given this absolutely no one would be elect if no one ever believed. It only insists God would save any who did.
2.) The "THOSE WHO" that you put in red are not specific individuals. It need only be understood to mean contingent upon whether or not someone does believe, God will save. It doesn't mean particular individuals are singled out as elect.
3.) As Tsalgi pointed out, the election can be understood as occuring post believing on Christ, thereby being placed into the elect once one believes.

There are probably numerous other reasons why this doesn't prove what you want it to prove, but 3 will suffice for now.
I am sure you truly believe that you are correct, but you are not.
And essentially any learned Calvinist, non-Calvinist, Arminian Theologian of any stripe who understands these issues will disagree with you. You are reading into it assumptions which are simply not there. I'm sorry.

 

We are adopted from before the foundation of the world. We are predestined and placed in Christ by God. God is the cause agent. We are the recipient, which receive the effect of the cause agent. All of Ephesians 1 tells you this. Why is this not obvious to you when Paul tells you point blank.

Why are you so intent on being man-centered for your salvation? The Bible is entirely God-centered in salvation. But, I cannot cause you to see. God must do that for you.
Peace

 

Those are the philosophical presuppositions which you bring to the doctrine. Were you to affirm Arminianism, those would be your conclusions. That's fine. That tells us a lot about what Van thinks, it doesn't enlighten anybody as to what is believed by Classical Arminians. Some no doubt would agree with you, but the confessions don't assume what you assume.
That is the difference. The confessions don't say what you are saying, thus, one could adopt them and not agree with your conclusions.
You have to distinguish between what is affirmed by confessional believers vs what you would assume the logical consequences are.

 

No one is claiming to mind-read you. Stop lying.

No one objected on a basis of personal incredulity...stop lying.

Yes, you did, and you misread them and misunderstood them, I only pointed out how, exactly, and why you misunderstood the classical Arminian position on this....
I was quite correct.

I'm not Arminian...
I'm a rank and unapologetic Pelagian actually...........
The difference between you and I, is that I at least understand what is being taught by each Soteriological position...
I am not Arminian.
I deny the doctrine of Original Sin.
You wouldn't know that, because you don't ever listen to anyone..........ever.......on any subject......ever.

No, but, that was also irrelevant to the point being discussed.
You are still wrong, and epically wrong.

Neither view holds this, neither Arminians nor Calvinists....
Every one of them..............Every one......
Be they Arminian or Calvinist denies that premise. That's just not true.

You are wrong.
And, I don't say this in an insulting manner...
But, you are simply ignorant of Systematic Theology if you believe that to be the case.
Neither view would (or at least must) support that statement as you expressed it.

You are an amazingly arrogant man.

You truly believe that you understand every Theological position so much better than it's own adherents do. You do so, not merely against the adherents of the Theology itself, but when non-believers, detractors, like myself, tell you that you are mistaken...
I'm not a Calvinist.......but, I can tell you that you are grossly misunderstanding them and insisting that they teach things they absolutely do NOT affirm.
I'm not Arminian.......but, I can tell you that you are grossly misunderstanding them and insisting that they teach things the absolutely do NOT affirm.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Do you understand how to mentally separate what you believe to be the logical consequences of a position from their stated beliefs???
I don't think you do. You are mistaken. Sorry.

 

Here is what Ephesians 1 tells us (not just me) point blank:

we are blessed with spiritual blessings in Him (v3)
we are chosen in Him (v4)
we are predestined to adoption in Him (v5)
we are made acceptable in Him (v6)
we are redeemed in Him (v7)
we are gathered and unified in Him (v10)
we are given an inheritance in Him (v11)
we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Him (v13)

We are not "in Him" until we are saved. We are not blessed with spiritual blessings until we are in Him. We are not made acceptable until we are in Him. We are not redeemed until we are in Him. We are not gathered and unified until we are in Him. We are not given an inheritance until we are in Him. We are not sealed with the Spirit until we are in Him. If every other thing we receive "in Him" is received at or after the point of our salvation, why do you pick the second and third in the list and arbitrarily decide we were somehow "in Him" for just those two before our salvation, and before time even began?

Scripture unquestionably teaches that the Lord Jesus was chosen and destined to be the Savior before time began. When we are placed "in Him" at salvation, by God's grace all eight things above (and many more) become ours; all of God, all of grace.

The "man-centered" charge can be equally applied to the idea that God fore-loved and fore-chose individual people in eternity past for salvation (or failed to choose them). Salvation is Christ-centered. Christ was elect in eternity past. Surely we can agree on that?

 

Ephesians 1:3-23
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:1-16
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

In this entire passage we never see "all this happened after you were saved." Instead we read "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."

Tsalagi, you are working hard to twist what God tells you. You claim that none of the passage was true until you were saved. Yet the term "saved" isn't even in the passage. The passage is clear. Just accept what God tells you.

 

The idea that "anyone who enters the sphere becomes chosen" is not supported by the text. Instead, it is a philosophical attempt to force God to fit into a timeline created by the OP.

What we see is that the predestined, chosen, adopted person who is receiving his inheritance was named before the foundation of the world.
The children of the promise were, in that sense, both individually chosen as well as corporately chosen before the foundation of the world.
The OP seems to want to make God's choice dependent upon an action by the human, which sways the mind of God so that God chooses that person as opposed to another person. Such a thought is a man-made concoction which the Bible does not support.

 

I have a large shelf full of Bibles here, posting long blocks of the text is not required.

The reference to salvation you think is not seen "in the entire passage" is in the part you omitted, verses 1 and 2. Paul is writing "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus." That's the definition of being saved, my friend: sanctified in Christ. There is no twisting involved in reading Paul's salutation, which clearly identifies to whom the letter applies: those who are saved.

I suggest applying your helpful advice above personally before passing it along to others.

 

Yes, it is important to share the scripture so you cannot argue what is not there.
Let's look at those 2 verses.

Ephesians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the Ephesians are already saints. They are faithful (Eph 2:8-9 tells us this faith is God's gracious gift). They are in Christ Jesus.

Verses 1 and 2 say the same thing that is continued in the chapter as well as in chapter 2. Tsalagi, you have no valid argument for your position. You are adding a concept that is not presented in these passages. You are forcing your bias upon the text.