What about the doctrine of Original Sin?

[percho]

Methinks by the very nature of Adam's creation, that is of flesh; for to vanity was the creation (Adam, he was the crowning action of the creation, was he not?) made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20

After all before the creation of Adam, the Lamb, was slain, the hope, of the one (Adam) who would bring sin and death, to flesh.

Romans 8:3 YLT
for what the law <Thou shall not eat of it) was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,


Actually the only sin that matters.

 

[37818]

in hope, Rom 8:20

The context of v.20 is Romanns 8:21 referring to after the fall. ". . . Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption . . . ."

 

[percho]

The context of v.20 is Romanns 8:21 referring to after the fall. ". . . Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption . . . ."

Romans 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;

Would you agree that the revelation of the sons of God is a pre fall, pre the foundation of the world concept?

according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph 1:4,5

The vanity, that the creation did not subject itself to, was corruption. The Hope is to be changed from corruption unto incorruption as adopted sons of God.

And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it? and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it. 8:23-25

There is a reason God did it this way.

 

[George Antonios]

God is infinite good. No amount of evil can change Infinite good.

God made man good. Man is finite good. Any evil does harm to finite good.

I meant about the sugar and cyanide.

 

[JonC]

My two basic presuppositions.
God is infinite good.
Man was not made to be infinitely good.

The knowledge of good and evil is God's. And man did not have that knowledge until they disobyed. Genesis 3:1-22.

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." -- Deuteronomy 24:16.

I agree.

 

[37818]

having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph 1:4,5

Romans 8:21-23, ". . . Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. "

 

[37818]

I meant about the sugar and cyanide.

Sugar does not make even a very little cyanide not to be very very poisonous.

 

[Dave G]

a lot of beliefs central to Christianity aren't found in scripture).

Name some...

If we're talking about traditional, modern-day "Christianity",
then I have a fairly large list ( that only begins to touch on Roman Catholic beliefs, for example ):

Dressing up on Sundays to assemble together with the local body of Christ,
"Clergy / Laity" distinction,
Tithing as opposed to giving ( Old Testament temple support versus true Christian giving ),
The assembly being a "spectator sport" where one man or group directs most of what happens during it, instead of everyone exercising their spiritual gifts together,
A "worship band",
Everyone going along with what the pastor says about a given subject, without checking it against what God's word says,
"Pews",
An "altar" at the front of the church ( part of Hebrew Old Testament temple sacrifice ),
A "baptistry" ( baptisms were usually performed in lakes and rivers, and still are in some parts of the world )
"Bible colleges" and "seminaries",
A "choir",
" Vestments",
Pastors and other members who make a paycheck for serving the local assembly with their spiritual gifts,
"Trustees",
A parsonage,
A church building or meeting house,
"Christmas" or any other holiday,

...many more.

In fact, much of this list has become central to most people's understanding of how Christian churches are supposed to be established and operated, when very nearly none of this was practiced or even thought of in the first century;
It just became traditional over the course of the past 2,000 years, some of it within the past 50 to 100 or so.

For example, "Christmas" wasn't celebrated for the first few hundred years after Christ ascended, and in America it wasn't celebrated until sometime in the early 1800's.
It was not even observed as a federal holiday until 1870.

"Clergy-Laity distinction" is probably the oldest one not found in the Scriptures,
unless one considers having a single pastor ( or team of them ) as being similar to the Old Testament model in which the pastor replaces the priest and / or prophet of God...
but since everyone in the body of Christ is a prophet, priest and a king, then there really is no reason to elevate anyone above another.

Respect for an elder?
That's biblical and that's different.


Just some thoughts off the top of my head, when I compare the Scriptures with what I see happening today.

 

[percho]

Romans 8:21-23, ". . . Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. "

I will give it my best shot.

Gen 1:3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is.

Before this was said, The Lamb of God would be coming to shed his blood, that is to die. The blood that would be spoken of in Lev 17:11.

Gen 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The creation of this age is finished and is complete and is subject to vanity. It is subject to the bondage of corruption. Romans 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

Adam was created of the earth, earthy 1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:, that is of flesh.

From Romans 5:13 sin is not imputed when there is no law. However God gave the man created of the earth. of flesh, a law.
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Notice God did not tell him, if you eat of it but in the day he did eat. The Lamb was already foreordained to die, the man was going to eat of it, in hope.

From Romans 5:12 to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

Gen 1:3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is ---------- God is about to put in motion the means for destroying the devil, the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, who has the power of death.

Hebrews 2:14 Seeing, then, the children (Of Adam) have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, < Foreordained before the foundation of the world) that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
1 John 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

Acts 15:18 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;

 

[37818]

I will give it my best shot.

Gen 1:3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is.

Before this was said, The Lamb of God would be coming to shed his blood, that is to die. The blood that would be spoken of in Lev 17:11.

Gen 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The creation of this age is finished and is complete and is subject to vanity. It is subject to the bondage of corruption. Romans 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

Adam was created of the earth, earthy 1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:, that is of flesh.

From Romans 5:13 sin is not imputed when there is no law. However God gave the man created of the earth. of flesh, a law.
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Notice God did not tell him, if you eat of it but in the day he did eat. The Lamb was already foreordained to die, the man was going to eat of it, in hope.

From Romans 5:12 to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

Gen 1:3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is ---------- God is about to put in motion the means for destroying the devil, the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, who has the power of death.

Hebrews 2:14 Seeing, then, the children (Of Adam) have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, < Foreordained before the foundation of the world) that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
1 John 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

Acts 15:18 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;

Your interpretation does not make sense to me. I am not even, at this point, going to try.

What you seem to be doing is conflating the natural light of the Sun on day one Genesis 1:3 with God being light, 1 John 1:5, John 1:9.

 

[George Antonios]

Sugar does not make even a very little cyanide not to be very very poisonous.

Ah ok, thanks.

 

[Aaron]

If we're talking about traditional, modern-day "Christianity",
then I have a fairly large list ( that only begins to touch on Roman Catholic beliefs, for example ):

Dressing up on Sundays to assemble together with the local body of Christ,
"Clergy / Laity" distinction,
Tithing as opposed to giving ( Old Testament temple support versus true Christian giving ),
The assembly being a "spectator sport" where one man or group directs most of what happens during it, instead of everyone exercising their spiritual gifts together,
A "worship band",
Everyone going along with what the pastor says about a given subject, without checking it against what God's word says,
"Pews",
An "altar" at the front of the church ( part of Hebrew Old Testament temple sacrifice ),
A "baptistry" ( baptisms were usually performed in lakes and rivers, and still are in some parts of the world )
"Bible colleges" and "seminaries",
A "choir",
" Vestments",
Pastors and other members who make a paycheck for serving the local assembly with their spiritual gifts,
"Trustees",
A parsonage,
A church building or meeting house,
"Christmas" or any other holiday,

...many more.

In fact, much of this list has become central to most people's understanding of how Christian churches are supposed to be established and operated, when very nearly none of this was practiced or even thought of in the first century;
It just became traditional over the course of the past 2,000 years, some of it within the past 50 to 100 or so.

For example, "Christmas" wasn't celebrated for the first few hundred years after Christ ascended, and in America it wasn't celebrated until sometime in the early 1800's.
It was not even observed as a federal holiday until 1870.

"Clergy-Laity distinction" is probably the oldest one not found in the Scriptures,
unless one considers having a single pastor ( or team of them ) as being similar to the Old Testament model in which the pastor replaces the priest and / or prophet of God...
but since everyone in the body of Christ is a prophet, priest and a king, then there really is no reason to elevate anyone above another.

Respect for an elder?
That's biblical and that's different.


Just some thoughts off the top of my head, when I compare the Scriptures with what I see happening today.

List things that are central to Christianity that aren't biblical. I have a fairly long list of unbiblical things Christians do too. But no-trust theologian was implying that some cardinal truths we hold aren't biblical. In fact, he said many.

 

[Dave G]

List things that are central to Christianity that aren't biblical. I have a fairly long list of unbiblical things Christians do too. But no-trust theologian was implying that some cardinal truths we hold aren't biblical. In fact, he said many.

Oh...my mistake.
I thought that was a chance to post a list of things that professing believers do and hold to, that are not not found in the book of Acts or any of the epistles.

 

[percho]

Your interpretation does not make sense to me. I am not even, at this point, going to try.

What you seem to be doing is conflating the natural light of the Sun on day one Genesis 1:3 with God being light, 1 John 1:5, John 1:9.

I am telling you from scripture on day 1 the lamb of God had already been foreordained to die. Just where do you think, to die, was going to come from?

Let me ask. On day 1, was that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, the great dragon, already at that moment, the adversary of God? At that very moment in time, day one, was the devil already a sinner, did the devil and his works already need to be destroyed?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

On day one was the destruction of the devil and his works, going to be by the manifestation of the Son of God, as a man, the Word made flesh?

And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separated between the light and the darkness, Gen 1-4

Was the darkness, good, also? Why did God separate them?

 

[robustheologian]

List things that are central to Christianity that aren't biblical. I have a fairly long list of unbiblical things Christians do too. But no-trust theologian was implying that some cardinal truths we hold aren't biblical. In fact, he said many.

I meant explicitly taught in Scripture. Such as trinitarianism, Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology, Christology, or the biblical canon.

 

[Van]

Another touchy subject in the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is Original Sin. It seems to some Christians a very 'gloomy' term. Some even go as far as to reject the classical definition of original sin citing that it isn't found in Scripture (I've always thought that to be a poor argument since a lot of beliefs central to Christianity aren't found in scripture).

While a lot of Christians do accept a doctrine of original sin, it appears historic Calvinism has the strongest and most biblical belief of it. So much so that the concept is bedrock to Reformed theology for those who have followed it to its logical conclusion.

What I often wonder is:
(1) What doctrine of original sin do Christians who don't identify with Calvinism hold?
And, (2) in the case of Calvinism and original sin, is it even possible (meaning logically consistent) to hold to the historic definition of original sin without ascribing to the theology referred to as Calvinism?

Hi, I am responding to the OP, and have not read any of the follow-on posts.
I am a non-Calvinist who believes in "original sin" or the consequences of Adam's sin being applied by God to all humankind.
So the first distinctive between the Calvinist view and the non-Calvinist view is one of the consequences being the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability. The non-Cal view is we were separated from God, thus spiritually dead, and two we were corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. None of these conditions result in the inability to sometimes seek God, or understand spiritual milk, to fully trust in Christ.

As to your second question, yes, the only view logically possible is to reject total spiritual inability as a consequence of the Fall. If that bogus doctrine were true, no one would find the narrow path that leads to life, but since a few do, they have some limited spiritual ability even in their fallen state.

 

[percho]

Hi, I am responding to the OP, and have not read any of the follow-on posts.
I am a non-Calvinist who believes in "original sin" or the consequences of Adam's sin being applied by God to all humankind.
So the first distinctive between the Calvinist view and the non-Calvinist view is one of the consequences being the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability. The non-Cal view is we were separated from God, thus spiritually dead, and two we were corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. None of these conditions result in the inability to sometimes seek God, or understand spiritual milk, to fully trust in Christ.

As to your second question, yes, the only view logically possible is to reject total spiritual inability as a consequence of the Fall. If that bogus doctrine were true, no one would find the narrow path that leads to life, but since a few do, they have some limited spiritual ability even in their fallen state.

I can agree with your statement, yet being sinners, from conception Ps 51:5, that in bold will not save us out of death, the wages of sin, we will be saved because of, to the for grace through the faith.

Now here is what I believe, "to the for grace through the faith," to be, that saves thge sinner out of death.

through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, (the faith) and having been made perfect, (to the for grace, raised him out of the dead) he did become to all those obeying him a cause (author) of salvation age-during, Heb 5:8,9

and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death (the faith) -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, (to the for grace, raised him out of the dead) and gave to him a name that is above every name,

After all, it is the death and resurrection of him by which we are saved is it not?

 

[utilyan]

List things that are central to Christianity that aren't biblical. I have a fairly long list of unbiblical things Christians do too. But no-trust theologian was implying that some cardinal truths we hold aren't biblical. In fact, he said many.

1. What books belong in the bible?
2. A rule in the bible that states things must be biblical.
3. The Greater Unobligated Responsibility of Original Sin Natural to the Human Heart.
4. Cheeseburgers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God is infinite good. No amount of evil can change Infinite good.

God made man good. Man is finite good. Any evil does harm to finite good.

You mean that man is flawed and corruptible. Now did G~D intentionally make humans flawed and then are humans intentionally corrupt able?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If we're talking about traditional, modern-day "Christianity",
then I have a fairly large list ( that only begins to touch on Roman Catholic beliefs, for example ):

Dressing up on Sundays to assemble together with the local body of Christ,
"Clergy / Laity" distinction,
Tithing as opposed to giving ( Old Testament temple support versus true Christian giving ),
The assembly being a "spectator sport" where one man or group directs most of what happens during it, instead of everyone exercising their spiritual gifts together,
A "worship band",
Everyone going along with what the pastor says about a given subject, without checking it against what God's word says,
"Pews",
An "altar" at the front of the church ( part of Hebrew Old Testament temple sacrifice ),
A "baptistry" ( baptisms were usually performed in lakes and rivers, and still are in some parts of the world )
"Bible colleges" and "seminaries",
A "choir",
" Vestments",
Pastors and other members who make a paycheck for serving the local assembly with their spiritual gifts,
"Trustees",
A parsonage,
A church building or meeting house,
"Christmas" or any other holiday,

...many more.

In fact, much of this list has become central to most people's understanding of how Christian churches are supposed to be established and operated, when very nearly none of this was practiced or even thought of in the first century;
It just became traditional over the course of the past 2,000 years, some of it within the past 50 to 100 or so.

For example, "Christmas" wasn't celebrated for the first few hundred years after Christ ascended, and in America it wasn't celebrated until sometime in the early 1800's.
It was not even observed as a federal holiday until 1870.

"Clergy-Laity distinction" is probably the oldest one not found in the Scriptures,
unless one considers having a single pastor ( or team of them ) as being similar to the Old Testament model in which the pastor replaces the priest and / or prophet of God...
but since everyone in the body of Christ is a prophet, priest and a king, then there really is no reason to elevate anyone above another.

Respect for an elder?
That's biblical and that's different.


Just some thoughts off the top of my head, when I compare the Scriptures with what I see happening today.

You should consider the Primitive Baptists... they truly use the scriptures as the defining means of worship