1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by atpollard, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    see #6
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    see #6
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since Christ was "foreknow" before the foundation of the world, God formulated His redemption plan before Adam was created.
    1 Peter 1:20

    However, the next issue is did God's redemption plan designate the individuals to be redeemed, or was the designation corporate. Since 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we were "once not a people) the designation was corporate.
     
    #23 Van, Jan 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would you be speaking in terms of Sotierology?

    Are you saying that God knew that there would be a fall, and planned for A SALVATION (but it only became a reality after the fall)?
    Were you thinking something else?
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am a Particular Baptist, so there is no getting around the fact that I happen to be a "5 point Calvinist" when it comes to TULIP. Setting that aside for a moment, I thought I had tried to avoid stepping into the old Election-Free Will debate by avoiding all focus on that aspect. If you will reread my post, I am arguing that God WANTED Adam and Eve to sin so that God COULD send a Savior. Election or Free Will are irrelevant to my argument and point. My most basic point is that it is better for both GOD and MAN that there is a FALL and a CHRIST than if there had been no fall! God created Adam and Eve to fall. Election plays no part in that. Free will plays no part in that. The Divine Plan of Creation and Salvation is what we are talking about at a level above anything that man does or does not do.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God foreknew before His foreseening anything, . . . of course neither came first. God and His knowledge has no beginning no origin.

    Respectfully your answer in your post #6 gives what you think but not how you came to that conclusion.

    Given views A and B.
    A is true, B is false.
    A is false, B is true.
    Both A and B are false.
    Both A and B are true.
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    so you agree with this from the Westminister Confession?

    Section 1.) Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

    God was "pleased" to "permit, order" the fall? This is blasphemy!
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As I told SavedByGrace, Election/Free Will and Corporate/Individual are important but irrelevant to my argument.

    My claim is that GOD wanted Adam to fall, because it was better for both God and Mankind and always the perfect plan of God.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Something else.
    What God knew and knows has no "thought" as we finite beings think and have thought. God's knowledge like God Himself has not beginning.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you can always prove it wrong! look at #27, my comments, do you agree with this from this Confession?
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God foreknew, & had already made His plan. After all, Satan had fallen before man was made.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Verse please (I presented mine with commentary).
    Blasphemy is a very serious charge that should not be thrown around lightly.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did you read my post?? I showed God had formulated His redemption plan before creation, thus answering your question relevantly!!!

    Can you not follow the idea that if God's redeemer was foreknown before creation, the need for that redeemer was also foreknown? This is not rocket science.
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    meaning, "The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk"
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here you simply gave a rant. What I think you need to do is show how a teaching is contrary and wrong according to God's revealed word. By the fact Genesis 3:1-24 is given by God in His word. My argument is God and His foreknowing this has no origin even as God has no origin, it was always been known to God. And furthermore aways within God's eternal council, which has no beginning, even as God has no beginning.
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    do you even understand what the Westminister Confession actually says? :eek:
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know what it means.
    I was hoping you would back up your false accusations made against a fellow Christian with some sort of evidence or explanation. Terms like "blasphemy" and "heretic" tend to result in a negative response and end conversations. Is that your goal?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    what fellow Christian? I am calling what the Westminster Confession says on the FALL, blasphemy! which it is, as it is unbiblical heresy!
     
Loading...