Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

[SavedByGrace]

As A and B.
Not looking at the reasons.
There are 4 possibilities.
A is ture. B is false.
A is false. B is true.
Both A and B are false.
Both A and B are true.

Now looking at the reasons.

Please explain your understanding.
Why do you say both cannot be true?

Now God's knowledge is absolute omniscience. Not forseeing anything, God already knows before Creation. Creation is a temporal act attributed to God. A cause by the uncaused Cause. All causes are temporal or they would not be a cause.

Now that being said, please make your case. Thank you.

see #6

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don't know, If I want to take a stronger position, I think I will need to argue for some form of Hypercalvinism and a sadistic god ... which is unbiblical. So I think that is about the strongest position that I can take.


Opinions are like bellybuttons: everyone has one but that doesn't make them important.

Don't TELL me I am wrong, SHOW me where I am wrong!

see #6

 

[Van]

OK, so let's revive THEOLOGY just for our sad brother in Christ, "SavedByGrace".

Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Did God choose His plan of salvation BEFORE He created people, thus knowing when he first began the work of forming Adam that God was creating both people to end up in heaven and people to spend eternity in hell (because the fall was part of the plan from the beginning)?

Did God create mankind first, and only chose his plan of salvation after the fall of Adam made it necessary?

(Is that theological enough?)

Since Christ was "foreknow" before the foundation of the world, God formulated His redemption plan before Adam was created.
1 Peter 1:20

However, the next issue is did God's redemption plan designate the individuals to be redeemed, or was the designation corporate. Since 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we were "once not a people) the designation was corporate.

 

[atpollard]

Both are true. Infralapsarianism needs Supralapsarianism to be true. Neither came first.

Would you be speaking in terms of Sotierology?

Are you saying that God knew that there would be a fall, and planned for A SALVATION (but it only became a reality after the fall)?
Were you thinking something else?

 

[atpollard]

see #6

I am a Particular Baptist, so there is no getting around the fact that I happen to be a "5 point Calvinist" when it comes to TULIP. Setting that aside for a moment, I thought I had tried to avoid stepping into the old Election-Free Will debate by avoiding all focus on that aspect. If you will reread my post, I am arguing that God WANTED Adam and Eve to sin so that God COULD send a Savior. Election or Free Will are irrelevant to my argument and point. My most basic point is that it is better for both GOD and MAN that there is a FALL and a CHRIST than if there had been no fall! God created Adam and Eve to fall. Election plays no part in that. Free will plays no part in that. The Divine Plan of Creation and Salvation is what we are talking about at a level above anything that man does or does not do.

 

[37818]

see #6

I believe only in the first part of infralapsarianism, as being Biblically correct, that "God foresaw and permitted the fall of man". But not that which says, "after the fall he then decreed election as a means of saving some of the human race".

God foreknew before His foreseening anything, . . . of course neither came first. God and His knowledge has no beginning no origin.

Respectfully your answer in your post #6 gives what you think but not how you came to that conclusion.

Given views A and B.
A is true, B is false.
A is false, B is true.
Both A and B are false.
Both A and B are true.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am a Particular Baptist, so there is no getting around the fact that I happen to be a "5 point Calvinist" when it comes to TULIP. Setting that aside for a moment, I thought I had tried to avoid stepping into the old Election-Free Will debate by avoiding all focus on that aspect. If you will reread my post, I am arguing that God WANTED Adam and Eve to sin so that God COULD send a Savior. Election or Free Will are irrelevant to my argument and point. My most basic point is that it is better for both GOD and MAN that there is a FALL and a CHRIST than if there had been no fall! God created Adam and Eve to fall. Election plays no part in that. Free will plays no part in that. The Divine Plan of Creation and Salvation is what we are talking about at a level above anything that man does or does not do.

so you agree with this from the Westminister Confession?

Section 1.) Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

God was "pleased" to "permit, order" the fall? This is blasphemy!

 

[atpollard]

Since Christ was "foreknow" before the foundation of the world, God formulated His redemption plan before Adam was created.
1 Peter 1:20

However, the next issue if did God's redemption plan designate the individuals to be redeemed, or was the designation corporate. Since 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we were "once not a people) the designation was corporate.

As I told SavedByGrace, Election/Free Will and Corporate/Individual are important but irrelevant to my argument.

My claim is that GOD wanted Adam to fall, because it was better for both God and Mankind and always the perfect plan of God.

 

[37818]

Would you be speaking in terms of Sotierology?

Are you saying that God knew that there would be a fall, and planned for A SALVATION (but it only became a reality after the fall)?
Were you thinking something else?

Something else.
What God knew and knows has no "thought" as we finite beings think and have thought. God's knowledge like God Himself has not beginning.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Respectfully your answer in your post #6 gives what you think but not how you came to that conclusion.

you can always prove it wrong! look at #27, my comments, do you agree with this from this Confession?

 

[robycop3]

God foreknew, & had already made His plan. After all, Satan had fallen before man was made.

 

[atpollard]

God was "pleased" to "permit, order" the fall? This is blasphemy!

Verse please (I presented mine with commentary).
Blasphemy is a very serious charge that should not be thrown around lightly.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Verse please (I presented mine with commentary).
Blasphemy is a very serious charge that should not be thrown around lightly.

Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 6 - Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof..

 

[Van]

As I told SavedByGrace, Election/Free Will and Corporate/Individual are important but irrelevant to my argument.

My claim is that GOD wanted Adam to fall, because it was better for both God and Mankind and always the perfect plan of God.

Did you read my post?? I showed God had formulated His redemption plan before creation, thus answering your question relevantly!!!

Can you not follow the idea that if God's redeemer was foreknown before creation, the need for that redeemer was also foreknown? This is not rocket science.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Blasphemy

meaning, "The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk"

 

[atpollard]

Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 6 - Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof..

The Westminster Confession of Faith (besides being long and boring):

1. is not scripture (no matter what Presbyterians think)
2. does not say that your quote from the WCF (that I agree with) is BLASPHEMY!

 

[37818]

you can always prove it wrong! look at #27, my comments, do you agree with this from this Confession?

so you agree with this from the Westminister Confession?

Section 1.) Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

God was "pleased" to "permit, order" the fall? This is blasphemy!

Here you simply gave a rant. What I think you need to do is show how a teaching is contrary and wrong according to God's revealed word. By the fact Genesis 3:1-24 is given by God in His word. My argument is God and His foreknowing this has no origin even as God has no origin, it was always been known to God. And furthermore aways within God's eternal council, which has no beginning, even as God has no beginning.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Here you simply gave a rant. What I think you need to do is show how a teaching is contrary and wrong according to God's revealed word. By the fact Genesis 3:1-24 is given by God in His word. My argument is God and His foreknowing this has no origin even as God has no origin, it was always been known to God. And furthermore aways within God's eternal council, which has no beginning, even as God has no beginning.

do you even understand what the Westminister Confession actually says?

 

[atpollard]

meaning, "The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk"

I know what it means.
I was hoping you would back up your false accusations made against a fellow Christian with some sort of evidence or explanation. Terms like "blasphemy" and "heretic" tend to result in a negative response and end conversations. Is that your goal?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I know what it means.
I was hoping you would back up your false accusations made against a fellow Christian with some sort of evidence or explanation. Terms like "blasphemy" and "heretic" tend to result in a negative response and end conversations. Is that your goal?

what fellow Christian? I am calling what the Westminster Confession says on the FALL, blasphemy! which it is, as it is unbiblical heresy!