atpollard
Well-Known Member
No, just a translation from one of the denominations that use it.
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Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?
- Thread starter atpollard
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
I did not mean to imply Calvinism, just to face the reality that when God made Adam there would be no Universalism.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
which no doubt they have changed because of the problems the original causes! One cannot change the original language which was used for a purpose!
Since Christ was "foreknow" before the foundation of the world, God formulated His redemption plan before Adam was created.
1 Peter 1:20
However, the next issue is did God's redemption plan designate the individuals to be redeemed, or was the designation corporate? Corporate because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people. Once we had not received mercy.
God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin. Those that claim God caused Adam to sin are presenting unbiblical bogus doctrine from the middle ages. God provided the opportunity for Adam to sin, and allowed Adam to sin, but Adam sinned on his own volition. That is the biblical doctrine.
37818
Well-Known Member
The purpose for which God allowed Genesis 3:1-24 to take place. To the objective of God's glory. Re: 15. "In order, for the purpose; to the end; as means to an end."
Referencing:
Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
"OR'DER, n. [L. ordo.]
1. Regular disposition or methodical arrangement of things; a word of extensive application; as the order of troops or parade; the order of books in a library; the order of proceedings in a legislative assembly. Order is the life of business.
Good order is the foundation of all good things.
2. Proper state; as the muskets are all in good order. When the bodily organs are in order, a person is in health; when they are out of order, he is indisposed.
3. Adherence to the point in discussion, according to established rules of debate; as, the member is not in order, that is, he wanders from the question.
4. Established mode of proceeding. The motion is not in order.
5. Regularity; settled mode of operation.
This fact could not occur in the order of nature; it is against the natural order of things.
6. Mandate; precept; command; authoritative direction. I have received an order from the commander in chief. The general gave orders to march. There is an order of council to issue letters of marque.
7. Rule; regulation; as the rules and orders of a legislative house.
8. Regular government or discipline. It is necessary for society that good order should be observed. The meeting was turbulent; it was impossible to keep order.
9. Rank; class; division of men; as the order of nobles; the order of priests; the higher orders of society; men of the lowest order; order of knights; military orders, etc.
10. A religious fraternity; as the order of Benedictines.
11. A division of natural objects, generally intermediate between class and genus. The classes, in the Linnean artificial system, are divided into orders, which include one or more genera. Linne also arranged vegetables, in his natural system, into groups of genera, called order. In the natural system of Jussieu, orders are subdivisions of classes.
12. Measures; care. Take some order for the safety and support of the soldiers.
Provide me soldiers whilst I take order for my own affairs.
13. In rhetoric, the placing of words and members in a sentence in such a manner as to contribute to force and beauty of expression, or to the clear illustration of the subject.
14. The title of certain ancient books containing the divine office and manner of its performance.
15. In architecture, a system of several members, ornaments and proportions of columns and pilasters; or a regular arrangement of the projecting parts of a building, especially of the columns, so as to form one beautiful whole. The orders are five, the Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, Corinthian, and Composite. The order consists of two principal members, the column, and the entablature, each of which is composed of three principal parts. Those of the column are the base, the shaft, and the capital; those of the entablature are the architrave, the frize, and the cornice. The height of the Tuscan column is 14 modules or semidiameters of the shaft at the bottom, and that os the entablature 3 1/2. The height of the Doric order is 16 modules and that of the entablature 4; that of the Ionic is 18 modules, and that of the entablature 4 1/2, that of the Corinthian order is 20 modules, and that of the entablature 5. The height of the Composite order agrees with that of the Corinthian.
In orders, set apart for the performance divine service; ordained to the work of the gospel ministry.
In order, for the purpose; to the end; as means to an end. The best knowledge is that which is of the greatest use in order to our eternal happiness.
General orders, the commands or notices which a military commander in chief issues to the troops under his command.
OR'DER, v.t.
1. To regulate; to methodize; to systemize; to adjust; to subject to system in management and execution; as, to order domestic affairs with prudence.
2. To lead; to conduct; to subject to rules or laws.
To him that ordereth his conversation aright, will I show the salvation of God. Psa 50.
3. to direct; to command. the general ordered his troops to advance.
4. To manage; to treat.
How shall we order the child? Judg 13.
5. To ordain. [Not used.]
6. To direct; to dispose in any particular manner.
Order my steps in thy word. Psa 119.
OR'DER, v.i. to give command or direction."
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
When the Westminster Confession of Faith was drawn up, the word "order" had the meaning of "ordain"
To set or keep in order or proper condition; to adjust, dispose, or carry on according to rule; to regulate, direct, conduct, rule, govern, manage; to settle. (In quot. 1593, to regulate the conveyance of (troops).)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Then we need to go back to reading the OT in Hebrew and Aramaic and the NT in Greek!
You are speaking nonsense. Translations make the intended message clearer to people that do not speak the original language (Including archaic English). The WCF has ALWAYS had references to Scripture verses supporting the statements, so if there is any confusion about the statement, one need only go to the scripture and see the intent from the same verses that the author drew it from.
[WCF 1647] Chapter III.
Of God’s Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (a) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)
(a) Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18.
(b) Jam. 1:13, 17; I John 1:5.
(c) Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33.
(a) Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18.
(b) Jam. 1:13, 17; I John 1:5.
(c) Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33.
[WCF 2000] Chapter 3
God’s Eternal Decrees
1. From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely
and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1 This ordainment does not mean, however, that
God is the author of sin (he is not), 2 that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he
takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. Rather, the will of created beings
and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3
1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.
2. Jas 1.13-14, 17, 1 Jn 1.5, Eccl 7.29, Ps 5.4.
3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.
and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1 This ordainment does not mean, however, that
God is the author of sin (he is not), 2 that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he
takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. Rather, the will of created beings
and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3
1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.
2. Jas 1.13-14, 17, 1 Jn 1.5, Eccl 7.29, Ps 5.4.
3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You are trying to defend the undefendable
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I think it is time for the kid gloves to come off.
You respond to polite information with rude soundbites.
In what UNIVERSE is translating anything "undefendable"? (and I think the word is indefensible).
That is all that I have DEFENDED here.
I obliged your request to discuss something THEOLOGICAL by presenting a controversial topic, selecting an extreme position to defend, and offering both Scripture and an analysis of that scripture to support my position in the discussion.
You have replied with snippets stating by fiat that I am wrong, Calvinism is wrong, the WCF is blasphemy, Supralapsarianism is unbiblical, and translation is "undefensible".
What you have not done is answer any of the posters that bothered to inquire WHY you believe what you claim. You appear completely incapable of giving any reason whatsoever for anything you claim to be true. You must be the Pope because you choose to speak with supernatural authority ... it is true because you SAY it! You may be correct, but until you demonstrate your Apostolic Authority with the appropriate signs and wonders, I must reject your word for that of the Scripture that has been handed down to us before you.
Sorry.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
simply because the Holy Bible does not teach or allow it. Simple! The WCF makes God out to be the author of sin, when they say that "whatever comes to pass has been ordered" By God. When this document was written, "ordered" had the same meaning as "ordained". Now, either God has, or has not, "ordered all things that come to pass". If this is so, as the WCF has it, then there can be no escaping the fact, that God must be sins "author". The language used on the fall, also shows that somehow God not only "had pleasure" in this, but also "purposed" it, and then it says in Genesis 6, that God was pained that man had fallen! If He had "purposed" the fall in the first place, then why should he be "grieved" when man sinned? Reformed theology is crackers!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[see Post #67] I posted EXACTLY what they wrote, both the ORIGINAL 1647 version and the MODERN 2000 version, and statement 1 under Eternal Decrees SPECIFICALLY refutes what you claim. Even the Original Authors are explicitly stating that you are deliberately misinterpreting their words.
You have also continued to ignore THEOLOGY by ignoring Scripture, to continue to focus on the WCF ... a document that YOU dragged into this discussion in the first place.
If you want to debate the WCF, then start a topic on that (although you would get more interest on a Presbyterian Board than a Baptist Board since Baptists do not follow the WCF).
If you just want to rant against Reformed Theology, then start a blog.
Call me if you ever change your mind and want to have a conversation.
Shalom (that means "Peace and well being")
Are not though both eternal plans of God, as from all eternity the Fall and the Cross were already to happen in His mind?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
What's the point when you are just trying to defend the WCF even though I have shown that it is unbiblical in parts. You are obviously intent in sticking to your convictions as a reformed person.
He could if was for a greater purpose?
was not the Cross of Christ though already to come before there even was the fall?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
What actually cause the fall? Absurd!
was the final state of man in the glorified state better then was before the Fall though?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
are you saying that God cause Adam and Eve to sin against Him, and then punish them for doing so, and the whole human race? How can God be the "cause/author" of sin, and Himself remain Holy and sinless?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Infralapsarianism is not my strongest area of study, but I think it begins with the assumption that God made mankind equally capable of obeying or falling into sin, thus there was at least a theoretical possibility that Adam and Eve might not have fallen. No fall negates the necessity for a Savior. So need for a plan of Salvation comes after the fall.
The whole thing is a pretty "theoretical" and "straining at gnats" sort of topic. So people SHOULD have been able to discuss it and disagree without getting all tangled up in personalities. Who really has a dog in the fight over when God decided to do something?
[shrug]
I am not saying that he did, just that something to consider here!