Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

[Yeshua1]

Infralapsarianism is not my strongest area of study, but I think it begins with the assumption that God made mankind equally capable of obeying or falling into sin, thus there was at least a theoretical possibility that Adam and Eve might not have fallen. No fall negates the necessity for a Savior. So need for a plan of Salvation comes after the fall.

The whole thing is a pretty "theoretical" and "straining at gnats" sort of topic. So people SHOULD have been able to discuss it and disagree without getting all tangled up in personalities. Who really has a dog in the fight over when God decided to do something?

[shrug]

Still seems that the Fall was going to happen though, and that God always had the Cross as its remedy!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am not saying that he did, just that something to consider here!

Why would you want to consider something that will make the God of the Bible the author of sin and therefore not able to be the Saviour of sinners. This goes against the very nature and character of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK, so let's revive THEOLOGY just for our sad brother in Christ, "SavedByGrace".

Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Did God choose His plan of salvation BEFORE He created people, thus knowing when he first began the work of forming Adam that God was creating both people to end up in heaven and people to spend eternity in hell (because the fall was part of the plan from the beginning)?

Did God create mankind first, and only chose his plan of salvation after the fall of Adam made it necessary?

(Is that theological enough?)

Did God determine that there would be the fall, and that the Cross and eternal state was superior to if there was no fall, or was the plan of the Cross always there, but based upon h knowing that the fall would happen?

Interesting that while both views among reformed have been held, the Confessions support Infra view!

 

[Yeshua1]

Why would you want to consider something that will make the God of the Bible the author of sin and therefore not able to be the Saviour of sinners. This goes against the very nature and character of God.

Again, does not the Cross and the final state of the redeemed glorify God though?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why would you want to consider something that will make the God of the Bible the author of sin and therefore not able to be the Saviour of sinners. This goes against the very nature and character of God.

ww.gotquestions.org/lapsarianism.html
For the record, I hold to Infra viewpoint on ths issue!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Again, does not the Cross and the final state of the redeemed glorify God though?

Again I ask you, are you saying that God actually causes sin and therefore us humans to sin against Him? Simple yes or no

 

[Yeshua1]

Again I ask you, are you saying that God actually causes sin and therefore us humans to sin against Him? Simple yes or no

No, God did not cause/force Adam to sin!

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, God did not cause/force Adam to sin!

You seem to suggest that

 

[atpollard]

Still seems that the Fall was going to happen though, and that God always had the Cross as its remedy!

That is what the Supralapsarians believe and push it a bit further. They would argue that even before God made Adam, He already knew about the fall and had it was always part of His plan, not only that, but God had already elected who He was going to save and who He was going to allow to follow their sinful desires.

I don't know how I feel about all of the details, but I agree with you that God was counting on the fall as part of His plan because redemption was better for both God and man than no fall at all.

 

[atpollard]

Again I ask you, are you saying that God actually causes sin and therefore us humans to sin against Him? Simple yes or no

No.

From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1 This ordainment does not mean, however, that God is the author of sin (he is not), 2 that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. Rather, the will of created beings and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3

1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.
2. James 1:13-14, James 1:17, 1 John 1:5, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Psalms 5:4.
3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.​

 

[Yeshua1]

That is what the Supralapsarians believe and push it a bit further. They would argue that even before God made Adam, He already knew about the fall and had it was always part of His plan, not only that, but God had already elected who He was going to save and who He was going to allow to follow their sinful desires.

I don't know how I feel about all of the details, but I agree with you that God was counting on the fall as part of His plan because redemption was better for both God and man than no fall at all.

This seems to fall under the heading of the secret things are known to God, and that his thoughts and ways are not ours!

 

[Yeshua1]

No.

From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1 This ordainment does not mean, however, that God is the author of sin (he is not), 2 that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. Rather, the will of created beings and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3

1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.
2. James 1:13-14, James 1:17, 1 John 1:5, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Psalms 5:4.
3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.​

The Infra view!

 

[atpollard]

The Infra view!

I think everyone that can honestly carry the name "Christian" agrees that God is not the author of sin (ie. God does not MAKE people sin). For "REFORMED", they centered the argument on whether God chose who to save BEFORE He created Adam, or AFTER He created Adam. Moving away from the narrow Reformed origins raises the question "Did Adam have a chance to NOT fall or was the fall as predetermined as the creation of Adam and the incarnation of Christ?" Obviously God KNEW Adam would choose to sin ... God knows everything. Did God plan for Adam to sin? Was the fall an active part of the plan from the beginning - like sending Satan to tempt Job.

It is a germ pondering the motives of a Whale ... but what else do we have to do? Talk about politics.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think everyone that can honestly carry the name "Christian" agrees that God is not the author of sin (ie. God does not MAKE people sin). For "REFORMED", they centered the argument on whether God chose who to save BEFORE He created Adam, or AFTER He created Adam. Moving away from the narrow Reformed origins raises the question "Did Adam have a chance to NOT fall or was the fall as predetermined as the creation of Adam and the incarnation of Christ?" Obviously God KNEW Adam would choose to sin ... God knows everything. Did God plan for Adam to sin? Was the fall an active part of the plan from the beginning - like sending Satan to tempt Job.

It is a germ pondering the motives of a Whale ... but what else do we have to do? Talk about politics.

This sounds really like the hidden secret things of the Lord!

 

[Brightfame52]

OK, so let's revive THEOLOGY just for our sad brother in Christ, "SavedByGrace".

Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Did God choose His plan of salvation BEFORE He created people, thus knowing when he first began the work of forming Adam that God was creating both people to end up in heaven and people to spend eternity in hell (because the fall was part of the plan from the beginning)?

Did God create mankind first, and only chose his plan of salvation after the fall of Adam made it necessary?

(Is that theological enough?)

I believe the former so that makes me supra right ?

 

[Dave G]

Our finite brains will never know the whole.

I agree that our finite brains may never know the whole of what can be learned.
But what is revealed in the Bible is for us, as God's children, to know ( Romans 15:4 ).

 

[Dave G]

If you will reread my post, I am arguing that God WANTED Adam and Eve to sin so that God COULD send a Savior

Isn't that termed as "infralapsarianism"?

God created Adam and Eve to fall.

I'll have to disagree, here.
I see the Scriptures declaring that God created it as good.
Therefore, to me it started out without flaw, and then was allowed to be corrupted by His creatures.

In the details, I see the Lord ordaining Christ to come, but only providing for what He knew was going to happen...
Both Lucifer and Adam / Eve sinning against Him.

The Divine Plan of Creation and Salvation is what we are talking about at a level above anything that man does or does not do.

Amen.

 

[Brightfame52]

daveg

I see the Scriptures declaring that God created it as good.

So you dont believe the world was created for a Eternal redemptive purpose centered in Christ Jesus ? Eph 3:11

11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[Dave G]

I don't know how I feel about all of the details, but I agree with you that God was counting on the fall as part of His plan because redemption was better for both God and man than no fall at all.

Personally, I see that, even though the Lord provided for the Fall,
I also see that the entire thing, in a dynamic way, was intended to bring glory to the Lord.

In other words, He knew what we as men would willingly do given the test ( whether to obey under temptation, or to fail and then try to justify ourselves instead of admitting sin and seeking reconciliation immediately ), ordained His Son to be given for a people from before the world began, and decided to save a portion of those who willfully sinned out of it.
All the while reserving the remainder of the unjust for just punishment.

From our selfish and self-justifying point of view, this seems horrible.
But from the standpoint of a perfect and God-glorifying plan of both grace and mercy, holiness, justice and being willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Shall the Lord not do right?
That should never be anywhere close to our minds as believers.

He always does what is right and just, and He will always do what is right and just.

 

[Dave G]

So you dont believe the world was created for a Eternal redemptive purpose centered in Christ Jesus ? Eph 3:11

11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

See my above.