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Featured Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by atpollard, Jan 21, 2021.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Still seems that the Fall was going to happen though, and that God always had the Cross as its remedy!
     
    #81 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2021
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Why would you want to consider something that will make the God of the Bible the author of sin and therefore not able to be the Saviour of sinners. This goes against the very nature and character of God.
     
    #82 SavedByGrace, Jan 22, 2021
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did God determine that there would be the fall, and that the Cross and eternal state was superior to if there was no fall, or was the plan of the Cross always there, but based upon h knowing that the fall would happen?

    Interesting that while both views among reformed have been held, the Confessions support Infra view!
     
    #83 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2021
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, does not the Cross and the final state of the redeemed glorify God though?
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2021
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ww.gotquestions.org/lapsarianism.html
    For the record, I hold to Infra viewpoint on ths issue!
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2021
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Again I ask you, are you saying that God actually causes sin and therefore us humans to sin against Him? Simple yes or no
     
    #86 SavedByGrace, Jan 22, 2021
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, God did not cause/force Adam to sin!
     
    #87 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2021
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You seem to suggest that
     
    #88 SavedByGrace, Jan 22, 2021
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is what the Supralapsarians believe and push it a bit further. They would argue that even before God made Adam, He already knew about the fall and had it was always part of His plan, not only that, but God had already elected who He was going to save and who He was going to allow to follow their sinful desires.

    I don't know how I feel about all of the details, but I agree with you that God was counting on the fall as part of His plan because redemption was better for both God and man than no fall at all.
     
    #89 atpollard, Jan 22, 2021
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No.

    From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1 This ordainment does not mean, however, that God is the author of sin (he is not), 2 that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. Rather, the will of created beings and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3
    1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.
    2. James 1:13-14, James 1:17, 1 John 1:5, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Psalms 5:4.
    3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.​
     
    #90 atpollard, Jan 22, 2021
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This seems to fall under the heading of the secret things are known to God, and that his thoughts and ways are not ours!
     
    #91 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2021
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Infra view!
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2021
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone that can honestly carry the name "Christian" agrees that God is not the author of sin (ie. God does not MAKE people sin). For "REFORMED", they centered the argument on whether God chose who to save BEFORE He created Adam, or AFTER He created Adam. Moving away from the narrow Reformed origins raises the question "Did Adam have a chance to NOT fall or was the fall as predetermined as the creation of Adam and the incarnation of Christ?" Obviously God KNEW Adam would choose to sin ... God knows everything. Did God plan for Adam to sin? Was the fall an active part of the plan from the beginning - like sending Satan to tempt Job.

    It is a germ pondering the motives of a Whale ... but what else do we have to do? Talk about politics. :(
     
    #93 atpollard, Jan 25, 2021
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This sounds really like the hidden secret things of the Lord!
     
    #94 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2021
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I believe the former so that makes me supra right ?
     
    #95 Brightfame52, Jan 28, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree that our finite brains may never know the whole of what can be learned.
    But what is revealed in the Bible is for us, as God's children, to know ( Romans 15:4 ).
     
    #96 Dave G, Jan 28, 2021
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  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that termed as "infralapsarianism"?;)
    I'll have to disagree, here.
    I see the Scriptures declaring that God created it as good.
    Therefore, to me it started out without flaw, and then was allowed to be corrupted by His creatures.

    In the details, I see the Lord ordaining Christ to come, but only providing for what He knew was going to happen...
    Both Lucifer and Adam / Eve sinning against Him.
    Amen.
     
    #97 Dave G, Jan 28, 2021
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  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    daveg

    So you dont believe the world was created for a Eternal redemptive purpose centered in Christ Jesus ? Eph 3:11

    11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
     
    #98 Brightfame52, Jan 28, 2021
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  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I see that, even though the Lord provided for the Fall,
    I also see that the entire thing, in a dynamic way, was intended to bring glory to the Lord.

    In other words, He knew what we as men would willingly do given the test ( whether to obey under temptation, or to fail and then try to justify ourselves instead of admitting sin and seeking reconciliation immediately ), ordained His Son to be given for a people from before the world began, and decided to save a portion of those who willfully sinned out of it.
    All the while reserving the remainder of the unjust for just punishment.

    From our selfish and self-justifying point of view, this seems horrible.
    But from the standpoint of a perfect and God-glorifying plan of both grace and mercy, holiness, justice and being willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    Shall the Lord not do right?
    That should never be anywhere close to our minds as believers.

    He always does what is right and just, and He will always do what is right and just.
     
    #99 Dave G, Jan 28, 2021
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  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    See my above.
     
    #100 Dave G, Jan 28, 2021
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