• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John 3:16-18

Status
Not open for further replies.
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
All it shows is that you don't understand King James English.
Click to expand...
I must agree there. Our brother @SavedByGrace should read how the KJV uses should : it's often in the sense of would.

This is the king’s English:

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should [would] not be judged.

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should [would] suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should [would] believe a lie:
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
So you acknowledge the possibility that God did hate you before salvation.
Thus you acknowledge the possibility of God hating someone at one point in time, but loving them at another.
Thus you acknowledge the possibility of God both hating and loving someone - depending on the situation.

And you've certainly read:
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

So that he once loved Israel but then ceased, because of their wickedness.

Just saying.
Click to expand...
None of which is relevant to the OP and the point he was making.
Just saying.

(PS: Placed like you describe it, it sounds as if God might need to change, which is an impossibility and contra-scriptural. I think you may have proven that God did not hate me before I was saved.)
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
None of which is relevant to the OP and the point he was making.
Just saying.

(PS: Placed like you describe it, it sounds as if God might need to change, which is an impossibility and contra-scriptural. I think you may have proven that God did not hate me before I was saved.)
Click to expand...

It was relevant to the point you were seeking to make.

Also, it can't be "contra-scriptural" if it's said in the "scriptures", as was shown. And there are a dozen more to show.

If God didn't hate you before, when you were an enemy of God, under his wrath, walking according to Satan, etc ...that's contra-scriptural.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Also, it can't be "contra-scriptural" if it's said in the "scriptures", as was shown.
Click to expand...
To claim God changes, or changes his mind may, indeed be contra-scriptural:

  • [1Sa 15:29 NASB] 29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
  • [Psa 55:19 NASB] 19 God will hear and answer them-- Even the one who sits enthroned from of old-- Selah. With whom there is no change, And who do not fear God.
  • [Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
  • [Jer 4:28 NASB] 28 "For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."
  • [Mal 3:6 NASB] 6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
  • [Heb 7:21 NASB] 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
You calim to know Greek, and attack my knowledge of the language. I challenge you here in open forum to prove my OP Greek to be wrong!
Click to expand...
You have every right to throw down a gauntlet, but you might want to reread his post and throw down the correct gauntlet ... he is accusing you of not understanding Reformed Theology. He has not attacked your Greek in the quoted post.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
You have every right to throw down a gauntlet, but you might want to reread his post and throw down the correct gauntlet ... he is accusing you of not understanding Reformed Theology. He has not attacked your Greek in the quoted post.
Click to expand...

if you have been following my last thread on the Bible vs Reformed Theology, it is clear that this person questions my knowledge of Greek. Also his remarks here are an indirect attack on this in the OP. I challange anyone here to disprove my Greek grammar in the OP or anywhere else.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Although noble on the surface (and what believer would not agree with that statement?), it is in fact a confession that the interpretation limiting the sense of world and whosoever to only the pool of the elect, as Calvinistically understood, is not possible in John 3 - which was the OP's point to begin with.
Click to expand...
Quick question just based on what seems to me to be "in your face" obvious about John 3:16 ...

Why is it impossible for God to:
  • "love the world" (be that men from every nation and all men and all of creation; each in a different way) and send His son ...
    • men from every nation: Revelation 5:9
    • all men: Ezekiel 18:32
    • all of creation: Genesis 1:31
  • so that "whoever believes" (which is not everyone because not everyone believes) will not perish.
    • John 3:18

John 3:16 always seemed like an important verse about the intentions of God (something we get few glimpses into) and a terrible proof text for the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
To claim God changes, or changes his mind may, indeed be contra-scriptural:

  • [1Sa 15:29 NASB] 29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
  • [Psa 55:19 NASB] 19 God will hear and answer them-- Even the one who sits enthroned from of old-- Selah. With whom there is no change, And who do not fear God.
  • [Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
  • [Jer 4:28 NASB] 28 "For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."
  • [Mal 3:6 NASB] 6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
  • [Heb 7:21 NASB] 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
Click to expand...

You do realize that I've already quoted a verse where God stops loving people and begins hating them, right?
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Quick question just based on what seems to me to be "in your face" obvious about John 3:16 ...

Why is it impossible for God to:
  • "love the world" (be that men from every nation and all men and all of creation; each in a different way) and send His son ...
    • men from every nation: Revelation 5:9
    • all men: Ezekiel 18:32
    • all of creation: Genesis 1:31
  • so that "whoever believes" (which is not everyone because not everyone believes) will not perish.
    • John 3:18

John 3:16 always seemed like an important verse about the intentions of God (something we get few glimpses into) and a terrible proof text for the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.
Click to expand...

I don't think I understand the thrust of the question. Can you please make it plainer?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top