Bible vs Reformed Election

[Iconoclast]

indeed, but this still does not answer the fact that God desires (which the Hebrew for "pleased" is) that all wicked people were to repent of their sins and turn to Him for their salvation.

God has given the decalogue to show us our duty and what is pleasing to Him.
Only Jesus obeyed perfectly.
The people are haters of God and His holy law.
That is why the new birth is necessary.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amos 3:2, among other passges shows that ONLY the Children of Israel were the "People of God", and therefore "elect". The other nations were God's emenies!

Not so. People were elected before Israel was a nation.
Not all Israel was of Israel Rom 9:6-11

 

[Iconoclast]

hang on a minute. It is Reformed theology that teaches that "men cannot obey", because their "will is bound" by sin, which prevents their obeying? You guys talk in riddles!

we post scripture, not riddles.read roman 3 read romans 6

 

[Iconoclast]

so you are saying that ALL the people in Nineveh, were "elect"? Then why did God destroy this very "elect" place a hundred years after Jonah preached?

Nineveh was destroyed later on.Where do you see me suggesting they were all elect? what post was that?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ezekiel 18:21, "“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die"

Ezk 18...does not answer post 5 now, does it?

 

[Iconoclast]

yes, but God saving Grace and Mercy extends to the ALL that you mention! Those who believe will be saved, those who do not, will be sadly damned. very simple

There is a word for those who believe...they are called..THE ELECT.2TIM2:10

 

[SavedByGrace]

The people are haters of God and His holy law

Have you read what Psalm 106:40 says about God's reaction to His very Own People?

"Then the anger of the LORD was kindled against His people, and he abhorred His heritage"

Reformed are in the habit of throwing "Easu I hated", to try to prove that God hates His Creation. And yet here in this Pslam, the language is much stronger of God's feelings towards His People! I never see this text quoted by any Reformed/Calvinist! I wonder why?

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is a word for those who believe...they are called..THE ELECT.2TIM2:10

indeed, after they believe, the join the elect of God!

 

[Iconoclast]

you have failed to answer WHY would God use "non elect" people, for His purposes? Simple answer, because He LOVES ALL humans and desires their salvation. As it is very clear in Ezekiel 18:23, "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?". Do you grasp what God is saying here?

I have not seen one verse saying that God has a saving love for non elect people.maybe you could produce that.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not so. People were elected before Israel was a nation.
Not all Israel was of Israel Rom 9:6-11

The OT never once says that any other "people", than the Jews, are "elect", or in any way "special" to the Lord. Ture God did use people who were "outsiders" for His work, but there is no evidence that they were saved. However, we know that Rahab and Ruth were both saved, as were the people of Nineveh.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I have not seen one verse saying that God has a saving love for non elect people.maybe you could produce that.

Sure, Rahab, Ruth, the people of Ninevh, etc, etc. there is zero Bible evidence to show that they were in any way "elected" by God. This is only in peoples theology!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I have not seen one verse saying that God has a saving love for non elect people.maybe you could produce that.

And John 3:16, which you guys cannot accept is for the entire human race, because it disagrees with your set theology!

 

[Iconoclast]

indeed, after they believe, the join the elect of God!

Says no verse anywhere
Once again...you have dead men electing themselves rather than election being what God does Only God can allow you to see this truth. I and others have offered you stacks of truth.
You are like my youngest grandchildren. I make a stack of blocks and they crawl over to swat the tower down. That is what you are doing to solid teaching.

 

[Iconoclast]

And John 3:16, which you guys cannot accept is for the entire human race, because it disagrees with your set theology!

everyone believing

 

[SavedByGrace]

everyone believing

thanks for you time and sharing. I think that we are at the end of our time here.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reformed/Calvinistic “election” teaches that Jesus Christ only died for this group, and no person who is “non elect”, can ever be saved.

In the Old Testament, the Nation of Israel were the “elect” of God, whom He “chose” to be “His People”, as “His own possession”, etc. This is very clear in these passages, especially the one from Amos, which makes this very clear, “You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth”. Or, as it reads in the translation of Isaac Leeser, “Only you have I loved out of all the families of the earth”. And the LXX, “You especially have I known out of all the families of the earth”

“‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.” (Exodus 19:4-6)

“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth” (Deut. 7.6)

“For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession” (Psalm 135:4)

“But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend, You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts And said to you, ‘You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.” (Isaiah 41:8-9)

“But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, ‘Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen” (Isaiah 44:1-2)

“For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.” (Isaiah 45:4)

“You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” (Amos 3:2)

However, it is also very clear from other passages in the Old Testament, that God’s saving Grace and Love, is not restricted only to His People, the Children of Israel.

In the Book of Joshua, we have the truly wonderful story of God’s great saving Love for a woman, and her family, who God chose to protect His People. The woman is Rahab, who was a city prostitute! This woman was not from one of the “elect” in Israel, who God could have very well used for His purposes. Yet, out of What incredible Grace and Love! Here is clear evidence from the Bible, where a person, and her family, who were not from the Nation of Israel, who were ONLY the chosen of God, saved by God! Rahab is also mentioned in The Genealogy of Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of Matthew (1:5).

Then we have Ruth, who was a Moabite, who were enemies of Israel. Yet we read in the Book of Ruth, how God in His Providence, brought Ruth together with Boaz, who were the ancestors of King David, and that of the Lord Jesus Christ. Also in The Genealogy of Jesus Christ, in Matthew’s and Luke’s Gospels. Again, the Lord could have used any other person, especially one who was from the Nation of Israel, His own People, but He chooses to use someone who was not only not from Israel, but from a people who were enemies of Israel!

We also have the great city of the Ninevites, Nineveh, who oppressed the Children of Israel for many years. They were also not part of the “elect” Nation of Israel, as they were Assyrians, whose national “god” was called Ashur. The Prophet Nahum says that the Ninevites, were very wicked people. In Book of the Prophet Jonah, is an amazing account of the Great Mercy of God towards a people who were not only extremely evil, but also had not part of “His People”, the Children of Israel. Yet God call on His servant Jonah, to go to this city, and preach the Gospel of repentance to salvation. It is clear from the end of chapter 3 in Jonah, and chapter 4, that the people of Nineveh, from the greatest (the King), to the least, did obey the call of Jonah, and repent of their wickedness, and the Lord Mercifully had pity on them, and saved them!

This is irrefutable evidence from the very Word of Almighty God, that God’s saving Grace, Mercy, Compassion and Love, is NOT restricted to any “elect”, whom He would only save, and damn the others. The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the New Testament, and His salvation is still ever the same, to “whosoever repents and believes”, will indeed be saved. It is mans “theology” that has sought to narrow the Great Love that the Lord has towards to entire human race, NONE EXCEPTED!

The only thing this is proof of is that you love to take things out of context and that you either do not understand or intentionally misrepresent the Reformed position.

 

[Reformed1689]

hate? wow! I very much LOVE the Bible fact, that "GOD VERY MUCH LOVES EVERY HUMAN BEING", and desires that NONE are lost, but that they turn to Him from their wicked ways! Limiting the death of Jesus Christ for the "elect" only, is a hateful teaching and against the Bible!

Really? We are all under God's wrath before salvation, including the elect. Have you ever considered that if Jesus died for every individual that means His blood was not good enough to save all? He paid for the sin, payment made, but that payment was not good enough? The sacrifice was not enough? God could not accomplish the task?

 

[SavedByGrace]

The only thing this is proof of is that you love to take things out of context and that you either do not understand or intentionally misrepresent the Reformed position.

Greetings again! Well, one cannot argue with what the Lord Himself says in His Word! It is very clear that God's Amazing Love is there also for the so called non-elect, and His great desire to see them saved.

 

[Reformed1689]

Greetings again! Well, one cannot argue with what the Lord Himself says in His Word! It is very clear that God's Amazing Love is there also for the so called non-elect, and His great desire to see them saved.

You can't make that argument because people, like myself, CLEARLY see that is not the case plainly in Scripture. You need to do better than that. I'm not just going to "take your word for it." I clearly see FROM SCRIPTURE that your view is incorrect.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Really? We are all under God's wrath before salvation, including the elect. Have you ever considered that if Jesus died for every individual that means His blood was not good enough to save all? He paid for the sin, payment made, but that payment was not good enough? The sacrifice was not enough? God could not accomplish the task?

lets give you a human example. Suppose I am a doctor who has the only cure in the whole world, for Covid-19, and only my cure is guaranteed to work 100%, and prevent those who use it, to never ever get this desease. Now, only those who take up my offer, will receive this healing, those who refuse to, will probably die from it. Does it mean that I have failed by those who died? No, they did not come for their healing. Likewise Jesus told the murdering Jews in John 5, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (39-40). Note, Jesus does not say to these, that they cannot come, because they have not been drawn, etc. He tells them, that they REFUSE, that is CHOOSE not to go to Him for eternal life!