1 Peter 2:24

[Brightfame52]

You deny the dozens of verses that say the saved are "in Him?" I have no need to respond to the complete denial of scripture.

Only when God places a lost individual into Christ are they then "in Him."

Men who Christ died for were in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. Christ did not Love or die for folk not in Him. He died for His wife the Church Eph 5:25 they were one flesh Eph 5:30-32

30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[37818]

.. . then its obvious Christ did not die for them !

How?
Did Paul write in vain, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 13:5? Or did Peter write in vain, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." -- 2 Peter 1:4-10?

 

[37818]

and I deny that the phrase “believe into Christ” appears in any translation of scripture.

Not translation, but the Greek,, Acts of the Apostles 19:4, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." The Greek εις for "into" here is translated as "on."

 

[Brightfame52]

How?
Did Paul write in vain, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 13:5? Or did Peter write in vain, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." -- 2 Peter 1:4-10?

How ? I just stated how. Maybe you need to read again what I stated.

 

[Van]

I do not deny that dozens of verses “say the saved are ‘in Him?’”
I deny there is any scripture that teaches ...

and I deny that the phrase “believe into Christ” appears in any translation of scripture.

That you will not support your claims indicates that you probably have no support to offer. However, I did give you the benefit of the doubt and invited you to support your claim.

Was the issue of why God puts people into Christ addressed? Nope
Were the more than a dozen verses containing the phrase believes in or into (eis) addressed? Nope
Does any translation into English footnote the alternate translation choice "believes into Him? Yes

 

[Van]

Men who Christ died for were in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. Christ did not Love or die for folk not in Him. He died for His wife the Church Eph 5:25 they were one flesh Eph 5:30-32

30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Gee, did I not just read where this bogus view was denied by a Calvinist. Obfuscation on display. Did I not address why Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to individual election? Yes.

 

[Dave G]

No one here (Calvinist or not) is claiming that ANYONE is born saved.

I do, but it's kinda complicated.
It has to do with God "afore preparing" vessels of mercy in Romans 9:22-24.

In other words, we as believers in Jesus Christ are saved from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5, Matthew 25:34, 2 Timothy 1:9, Revelation 17:8 ), we are saved in this life ( 1 Corinthians 1:8, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:5 ) and we will be saved at the judgment ( Matthew 24:13, Matthew 25:46, Luke 21:19, Revelation 20:15 ).

Those that are chosen in Him from the foundation of the world, are indeed "born saved", as God is the one who determines who is saved by an act of His unmerited grace and favor...
I believe that He even works things so that His elect are brought through the generations to be born ( Malachi 2:15 and others, including Hebrews 4:3 ).
Our salvation is not, nor ever was, conditioned by our efforts ( beliefs, works, faith, etc. ) or affects God's decision to save some for Himself, or to reserve the unjust to everlasting punishment.

It is all completely according to His own purposes and grace ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18, Ephesians 1:11 ).

Basically stated,
He set aside a group of individuals before the world began ( His elect ), wrote their names in the Book of Life, foreordained His Son to live and die and be resurrected for them, and carried everything out in perfect agreement with His own purposes, which He has purposed in Himself...

No one can stay His hand or say to Him, "what are you doing?".

 

[Brightfame52]

Gee, did I not just read where this bogus view was denied by a Calvinist. Obfuscation on display. Did I not address why Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to individual election? Yes.

It is Individual Election, every individual member of the Body of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

I do, but it's kinda complicated.
It has to do with God "afore preparing" vessels of mercy in Romans 9:22-24.

In other words, we as believers in Jesus Christ are saved from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5, Matthew 25:34, 2 Timothy 1:9, Revelation 17:8 ), we are saved in this life ( 1 Corinthians 1:8, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:5 ) and we will be saved at the judgment ( Matthew 24:13, Matthew 25:46, Luke 21:19, Revelation 20:15 ).

Those that are chosen in Him from the foundation of the world, are indeed "born saved", as God is the one who determines who is saved by an act of His unmerited grace and favor...
I believe that He even works things so that His elect are brought through the generations to be born ( Malachi 2:15 and others, including Hebrews 4:3 ).
Our salvation is not, nor ever was, conditioned by our efforts ( beliefs, works, faith, etc. ) or affects God's decision to save some for Himself, or to reserve the unjust to everlasting punishment.

It is all completely according to His own purposes and grace ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18, Ephesians 1:11 ).

Basically stated,
He set aside a group of individuals before the world began ( His elect ), wrote their names in the Book of Life, foreordained His Son to live and die and be resurrected for them, and carried everything out in perfect agreement with His own purposes, which He has purposed in Himself...

No one can stay His hand or say to Him, "what are you doing?".

• Are they born without the need for reconciliation?
  
  
• Can they live, die and enter heaven without ever repenting because they were BORN part of the body of Christ and were NEVER dead in their trespasses and sins?

That is what Van is claiming Calvinism teaches. I stand by my claim that Calvinism does not teach that and I do not believe that.

 

[atpollard]

Was the issue of why God puts people into Christ addressed? Nope

Nor is it relevant to the topic of the meaning of 1 Peter 2:4.

Supralapsarianism vs Infalapsarianism was also not addressed.
YEC was also not addressed.
The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was also not addressed.

Do you see a pattern here?

Try talking about 1 Peter 2:4 (the topic) rather than your hatred of Calvinism or your pet Sotierology.

 

[atpollard]

Not translation, but the Greek,, Acts of the Apostles 19:4, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." The Greek εις for "into" here is translated as "on."

The Greek εις for "in" or “on” here is translated as "on."

It is not stating that anyone is being “believed into” Christ Jesus in the sense that Gal 3:27 describes being “baptized into Christ”.

 

[37818]

I hear you, but the point is Christs death effects a saving , healing experience for them He died for, His Sheep, Church ! If one is never healed, converted, then its obvious Christ did not die for them !

Not what I believe. I believe, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." -- Romans 14:11, By reason, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." -- Romans 14:9.

 

[Dave G]

Are they born without the need for reconciliation?

Already been reconciled, at the cross, by the death of His Son:

" For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:6-11 ).

All trespasses already forgiven, at the cross:

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

Can they live, die and enter heaven without ever repenting because they were BORN part of the body of Christ and were NEVER dead in their trespasses and sins?

No, because all of the above has to take place.
They have to be born, dead in trespasses and sins, come to repentance by their calling through the Gospel and endure to the end to be saved.

But God is not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

 

[Dave G]

That is what Van is claiming Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism may or may not teach that...
but having never studied systematized theologies until after I already saw election and so forth for myself, I'm not exactly sure what all "Reformed theology" teaches.

I stand by my claim that Calvinism does not teach that and I do not believe that.

OK.

 

[atpollard]

Already been reconciled, at the cross, by the death of His Son:

[2 Corinthians 5:16-21 NKJV] 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him thus] no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore [you] on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

• We WERE reconciled at the Cross.
  
  
• We ARE reconciled at our rebirth.
  
  
• We SHALL BE reconciled when we stand perfect before Him, forever.

 

[Dave G]

• We WERE reconciled at the Cross.
  
  
• We ARE reconciled at our rebirth.
  
  
• We SHALL BE reconciled when we stand perfect before Him, forever.

Here, try this:
I see that we're already reconciled, A.T....

" And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ).

God has ( past tense ) reconcileD us, as His elect, to Himself...
How?
By Jesus Christ, His work on the cross.

He has given to "us" ( Paul and Timothy, see chapter 1 ) the ministry of reconciliation...
That is, the ministry to God's saints, of their being reconciled ( Romans 5:6-11 ).

To wit ( namely ), that God the Father was in Christ, reconciling the "world" ( elect Jews as well as Gentiles ) to Himself.
At that point ( when Christ suffered on the cross and shed His blood ) not imputing the "world's" ( elect Jews as well as Gentiles ) trespasses to them and has committed to "us" ( Paul and Timothy, once again ) that world of reconciliation.

Right or wrong, that is how I currently understand it...
pending the Lord showing me otherwise.

 

[atpollard]

Here, try this:
I see that we're already reconciled, A.T....

" And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ).

God has ( past tense ) reconcileD us, as His elect, to Himself...
How?
By Jesus Christ, His work on the cross.

He has given to "us" ( Paul and Timothy, see chapter 1 ) the ministry of reconciliation...
That is, the ministry to God's saints, of their being reconciled ( Romans 5:6-11 ).

To wit ( namely ), that God the Father was in Christ, reconciling the "world" ( elect Jews as well as Gentiles ) to Himself.
At that point ( when Christ suffered on the cross and shed His blood ) not imputing the "world's" ( elect Jews as well as Gentiles ) trespasses to them and has committed to "us" ( Paul and Timothy, once again ) that world of reconciliation.

Right or wrong, that is how I currently understand it...
pending the Lord showing me otherwise.

OK, but how do you define “reconciled” and what does Ephesians 2:1-9 mean for a person BORN “reconciled”?

How is “reconciled” different from “saved”?

 

[Dave G]

OK, but how do you define “reconciled” and what does Ephesians 2:1-9 mean for a person BORN “reconciled”?

Reconciled = No longer at enmity with God.
See Romans 8:1-17.

Christ's work on our behalf, did that for us.

As for what Ephesians 2:1-9 means for an elect person that is already born reconciled ( and later finds out about their having been saved and reconciled to God ), I'll leave that to you to decide.
I realize that you're curious, but I'm still figuring a lot of this stuff out for myself.

( Necesito mas estudio, mi amigo ).

How is “reconciled” different from “saved”?

Saved = God's deciding to save someone.
Timing doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

God saves, and it gets done.

So, the way I see it:
Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9 basically lays it all out.

Saved ( eternity past ) / Foreknown, predestinated --------> Justified by the blood of Christ -------> created as a vessel of mercy ( in time ) ---------> "Called" to the knowledge of our being saved / given the new birth -----------> Study to show ourselves approved to God / grow in grace and knowledge -----------> go to be with the Lord.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not what I believe. I believe, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." -- Romans 14:11, By reason, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." -- Romans 14:9.

I dont even see how that comment relates. Im saying 1 Pet 2:24 teaches that Christs death brings about the Salvation of those He died for.

 

[Van]

It is Individual Election, every individual member of the Body of Christ.

1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that claim, no matter how often it is made.