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WAJungleMonkey

Member
Hi,
I am new to this forum. How would Baptists understand Paul's references to salvation in the past, present, and future tense? If the focus is primarily on the past tense, what importance is the present and future to salvation?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
WAJungleMonkey said:
Hi,
I am new to this forum. How would Baptists understand Paul's references to salvation in the past, present, and future tense? If the focus is primarily on the past tense, what importance is the present and future to salvation?
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Welcome wajm ,
God from eternity past has purposed to save a multitude of sinners in saving Union with His Son.
The Son takes upon Himself a body of flesh to live a perfect life , and offer Himself for the covenant children given to Him by the Father.
In time the Spirit quickens each one by new birth, saving them from the power of sin
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I believe salvation past is the most difficult because it is not really a biblical reality except that it point solely to the work of God reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. When we look to our personal "moment of salvation" ("the day I first believed") the focus is on our personal testimony, but even this has to exist in a present reality (show me your faith and I will show you my works kinda thing). Scripture never tells the Church to consider the moment they believed, but rather to look at their current life to determine if they are indeed saved. I consider our present salvation to be a "taste" of what is to come. The present looks to the future. This is why Paul, IMHO, can speak of our future salvation as a present reality. Our hope is in Christ (and this includes our salvation because just as God justified Christ so also will we be justified in Christ). Our future salvation is the salvation to which we look, when the Kingdom is here in its fulness and we are remade in the image of Christ (Christ is the Firstborn of many brethern).

Salvation past is the Cross, salvation present is faith in Christ, salvation future is the full realization of this faith. Salvation is Christ - past, present, future.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
A few verses come to mind, Ephesians 2:8, "you have been saved." [a modern translation]
Romans 5:9, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
WAJungleMonkey said:
Hi,
I am new to this forum. How would Baptists understand Paul's references to salvation in the past, present, and future tense? If the focus is primarily on the past tense, what importance is the present and future to salvation?
Click to expand...
The three aspects of salvation according to my belief, and the beliefs of many scholars, is as follows:

1) Past salvation refers to when God places a person spiritually into Christ. This is called "positional sanctification." Those set apart (sanctified or made saints) are forgiven not only of their past sins, but also for their present or future sins, because Christ made His sacrifice once for all. (1 Corinthians 1:2) (Romans 6:10)

2) In the present, during our physical lifetime after positional sanctification, we go through "progressive sanctification." Here we strive to follow Christ's commands and instructions to become more like Christ and we engage in our ministry of reconciliation where we diligently work to be effective ambassadors of Christ. During this phase of our salvation, we earn rewards such that we enter heaven "abundantly" provided we build on the foundation of Christ. Otherwise we still get to heaven, but as one escaping from a fire. (Romans 13:13-14) (1 Corinthians 3:15)

3) In the future, at Christ's second coming, we will be physically redeemed. This is our "ultimate sanctification." (Romans 8:23)
 
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W

WAJungleMonkey

Member
JonC said:
I believe salvation past is the most difficult because it is not really a biblical reality except that it point solely to the work of God reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. When we look to our personal "moment of salvation" ("the day I first believed") the focus is on our personal testimony, but even this has to exist in a present reality (show me your faith and I will show you my works kinda thing). Scripture never tells the Church to consider the moment they believed, but rather to look at their current life to determine if they are indeed saved. I consider our present salvation to be a "taste" of what is to come. The present looks to the future. This is why Paul, IMHO, can speak of our future salvation as a present reality. Our hope is in Christ (and this includes our salvation because just as God justified Christ so also will we be justified in Christ). Our future salvation is the salvation to which we look, when the Kingdom is here in its fulness and we are remade in the image of Christ (Christ is the Firstborn of many brethren).

Salvation past is the Cross, salvation present is faith in Christ, salvation future is the full realization of this faith. Salvation is Christ - past, present, future.
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Seems reasonable, I agree. Would you say it is of absolute importance that we cooperate with God in our sanctification and that cooperation has nothing to do with trying to be justified by works (assuming we have put our faith in the Cross)?
 
W

WAJungleMonkey

Member
Van said:
2) In the present, during our physical lifetime after positional sanctification, we go through "progressive sanctification." Here we strive to follow Christ's commands and instructions to become more like Christ and we engage in our ministry of reconciliation where we diligently work to be effective ambassadors of Christ. During this phase of our salvation, we earn rewards such that we enter heaven "abundantly" provided we build on the foundation of Christ. Otherwise we still get to heaven, but as one escaping from a fire. (Romans 13:13-14) (1 Corinthians 3:15)
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How do the Romans 13 and 1 Cor. 3 references you quoted relate? It seems to me that the work Paul talks about in 1 Cor. is related to the building of the Kingdom- ministry efforts- whereas, Romans is talking about those who are trapped in sin. Would you say that as long as we pray to receive Christ at some point in our life, then overcoming the sinful passions is something that's not a big deal because it will all be forgiven in the end?

Sorry if the answer to the question seems obvious, I believe I know the answer to that too, but I just don't want to assume anything.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
WAJungleMonkey said:
Seems reasonable, I agree. Would you say it is of absolute importance that we cooperate with God in our sanctification and that cooperation has nothing to do with trying to be justified by works (assuming we have put our faith in the Cross)?
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I wouldn't use "cooperation". It is Christ in us. It is of absolute importance that we take up our cross daily and follow Him.
 
W

WAJungleMonkey

Member
JonC said:
I wouldn't use "cooperation". It is Christ in us. It is of absolute importance that we take up our cross daily and follow Him.
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But aren't we cooperating with His grace by taking up our cross? This has nothing to do with our own self-righteous works but Christ infusing us with His righteousness so that it becomes ours?
 
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JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
WAJungleMonkey said:
But aren't we cooperating with His grace by taking up our cross? This has nothing to do with our own self-righteous works but Christ infusing us with His righteousness so that it becomes ours?
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We are working, for sure. There is probably no harder work than taking up our own crosses.

So this is definitely something we do. But at the same time this is something God does in us (we cannot do it, it is Christ in us).

How we put this together is a matter of individual understanding. Some see this as us + God. Others as God alone in us.

I personally believe this is us, but as new creations in Christ. So perhaps we have to distinguish between the "old man" and the "new creation".

I think there are dangers on both sides when we think we have to form micro-doctrines in this area. Some would discount this work of the re-created man. Others would make an equally erroneous doctrine by lacing the crux of salvation (the deciding factor) on man (again, this "old man").

I do not see Scripture going where we so often venture.
 
W

WAJungleMonkey

Member
JonC said:
I personally believe this is us, but as new creations in Christ. So perhaps we have to distinguish between the "old man" and the "new creation".
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I was just working off the assumption that this was already clarified. I would agree with you, us + God. Every time I try to bring that up, they immediately think I am against Faith Alone and accuse me of going against the Gospel. It really hurts.
I agree with faith alone, if we understand that to mean "faith that saves is never alone." We have to actually use the mind, body, and spirit God gave us, along with His grace (obviously), to do these works. Of course, it is Christ in me, but also through me. "Me" is in that picture because it involves my life, but I strive to direct all the glory to God for the things I have done.
My reaction to these people is often perplexity about why any Christian would be so against making any kind of attempt to live for Christ and actually stand up to walk in His power, with their own two feet. ...As I think about it... it is probably an over-reaction to Roman Catholic abuses. Personally, I have made peace with my differences with Catholicism and am completely comfortable working with God and yet not going so far as to join "all-in" with the Catholics.

The only thing I think would be unbiblical would be if a Christian thought, "I said the prayer, check. Fire insurance, check. Okay, now I can sit back, enjoy my life (because it's all about grace), and wait for Jesus to come give me my reward. If He wants me to change, He can do it without bothering me any."
... And I am aware that most Christians probably do not think that way, but I guess it is just my own over-reaction to the over-reaction.

In my early days as a believer, I was often told 'you can't do anything, you're worthless, you have no power, you have to just wait for God to do it for you.' That thinking kept me trapped in my sins for waaay too long and I eventually grew apathetic and hopeless. God has graciously renewed the vigor and I am determined not to waste it. I just want to find a church where my brothers in the faith support me in that and not stand in the way. ... Thanks for listening.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
WAJungleMonkey said:
Hi,
I am new to this forum. How would Baptists understand Paul's references to salvation in the past, present, and future tense? If the focus is primarily on the past tense, what importance is the present and future to salvation?
Click to expand...
( Please keep in mind that this evaluation is my own and not representative of any official statements...
But I consider it to be mostly accurate ;) ).

As I see it,
That depends upon which kind of "Baptist" you're speaking with.
Some 4 centuries ( or more ) ago when the term "Baptist" began to be used by their opponents, there were only two kinds of Baptist...
"General Baptists" and "Particular Baptists".

Over the past few hundred years, we come to where we are now...
With 3 "kinds" of Baptists that vary ( sometimes greatly ) on how they view salvation:

1) "Free Will Baptists" are, for the most part, in agreement with loss of salvation and look at it very similar to what John Wesley taught.
Some call this "5 point Arminianism" or even "Wesleyan Arminiansm".

2) "Provisionist / "Traditionalist Baptist" ( I grew up in this from the age of 12 to roughly 37 ) mostly hold to what is found on this chart that describes "Evangelicalism":
http://storage.cloversites.com/makinglifecountministriesinc/documents/Calvinism vs Arminianism vs Evangelicalism.pdf

Some call it "4 point Arminianism", some do not.

3) " Calvinistic Baptists" ( myself included ) are, for the most part, in full agreement with the right side of the chart found here:
Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

Some would call this "5 point Calvinism", some would not.
 
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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
@WAJungleMonkey :

To answer your OP,
I see Paul's references to salvation being developed in quite a bit of detail in the epistles that the Lord had him write to the churches:

Salvation past includes foreknowing ( fore-loving ) an individual before the foundation of the world, predestinating them conformed to the obedient image of Christ, "calling" them through the power of the Spirit and in conjunction with His preached word, justifying them by the blood of His Son, and someday glorifying them with a new body that is completely sin-free and in no way tempts the forgiven sinner ( known to God as a saint and one of His elect ) to stumble into sin anymore.
That salvation is from the penalty of sin.

Salvation present deals with saving His child from their enemies ( Satan included ), from their every trouble, and giving them the power to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil.
Their faith and the comfort of the Holy Spirit are the greatest gifts that the Lord has given to them in this present world.
That salvation is from the power of sin.

Salvation future includes the new glorified body that is completely free from the taint of sin, their being joined, physically, in company with the entire body of Christ, and to see and walk with the Lord Jesus who loved them and gave Himself for them.
This salvation is from the presence of sin.

In other words, the work of God, as a whole, describes a deliverance from all that is sin and what formerly alienated the believer from Him...their heart's desire to love sin and to hate the Lord.
It is also a deliverance to all that is righteous and true, and most especially, a Person...

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.


For that is what eternal life really is...
To know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ).

He is our exceeding great reward.:)
 
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