-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Brief Analysis of Romans 9:11.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so you believe that all babies that die are going to end up in hell?
37818
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, . . ." Two things. Christ was born sinless. Ordinary children are not.
Children who are not old enough to choose to refuse evil and to choose the good are also not old enough to believe in Christ who said, ". . . for such are the kingdom of God." And argued "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." When Jesus told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born over, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
explain this
37818
Well-Known Member
No. The are safe in Christ who died for them, 1 John 2:2.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so, sinful babies, who have not "repented and believed" (Mark 1:15), and therefore not "born again", will get into heaven? How?
Unless you quote my statement, your claims that I believe (or seem to believe) this or that are obnoxious.
The Greek grammar of the verb is non-germane. Do you understand what I am saying? The idea is those early in life have not done anything good or bad. Does this rely on them doing one thing or several things? Nope. Such a claim is bogus.
Did I not say they are predisposed to sin? Yet again, feigning stupidity, you ask as if I had not addressed the issue.
My view for the umpteenth time is all humans are made sinners, thus have received the consequence of sin, corruption and separation. Should I repeat that several times, until you stop pretending you do not understand?
I will type this slowly, the only view consistent with all scripture is that all humans are made sinners in that they are conceived into a separated from God state (realm of darkness) and are spiritually corrupted such that all are predisposed to sin. Thus early in life humans have done nothing good or evil, yet are "sinners" due to the Fall. To be a sinner means to have suffered the consequence of sin, separation and corruption. Do I need to repeat this a dozen times so you will start addressing the Biblical view?
37818
Well-Known Member
Why are names in the book of life? 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
One of the promisee is for those who are born of God, 1 John 5:4-5, is found in Revelation 3:5, "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ."
Those who perish, Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Those counted as children yet to God their names are not removed.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Children are yet children, Mark 10:15.
There names are not removed from God's book, 1 John 2:2, Revelation 20:15.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I asked YOU to explain, not just to quote some Bible verses!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what are you on about?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The words of God ( minus the italics in the AV ) are:
" ( for [ ] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;" ( Romans 9:11 ).
The context for what is in the italics is from Romans 9:6-10.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
God elected individuals to be the recipients of His gift of eternal life.
He uses, as examples, His love of Jacob and His hatred of Esau.
He also compares both of their "heritages", Israel and Edom, in Malachi 1:1-5 .
That choice to love one and to hate the other, individually, was indeed not based on their works...
but upon His grace and mercy alone ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
On a side note,
I also see that "The elder shall serve the younger" are pictures of God's enemies ultimately serving Him and His people,
and God's spiritually elder serving His spiritually younger, in this life.
Paul then takes that story, wherein the election was unto both salvation ( eternal life which is to know God and His Son, John 17:2-3 ) and to specific acts of service ( as developed in Ephesians 4:11-15 ), and extract from it that God does not elect based upon anything a person does ( especially the keeping of the Law ), and proves that point by declaring, in no uncertain terms, that God does not elect based upon him that wills or runs, but that it is strictly "of God that shows mercy" ( Romans 9:16 ).
Keeping in mind the statements made in Romans 9:22-29...
Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction and vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, he makes the point in Romans 9:25-26 ( and reiterates the prophecy found in Hosea 1:10 ) that, even though the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, there is a remnant of it that shall be saved.
He concludes at the end of the chapter ( Romans 9:31-33 ) the descriptive statement that the Gentile nations that historically did not follow after righteousness, did so because of faith ( which Israel historically did not ), while Israel that did follow after righteousness, did so by the works of the Law and not by faith.
As in Hosea 1:9-11, those that were not His people, have become His people...
Even though there is a remnant that has been called out of out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).
But Paul never mentions, in any of his epistles, that God's election of someone is based on their faith.
Rather, he very clearly tells the Philippians, the Ephesians and the Thessalonians, for example, that even the privilege to believe was given to them ( Philippians 1:29 ) and that their faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
In the analysis, I see that Romans 9:11 states that election is not based on a person's works,
but on the purposes of Him that calls, or "summons".
That places salvation squarely in the hands of the Lord, and anything that comes as a result of His saving someone is a blessed gift;
That includes their faith and their belief of the Gospel.
Last edited:
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Interesting how to fail to show what this "purpose" of God's "choice" here is? It very clear says, "the older shall serve the younger" (verse 12), and has nowt to do with salvation!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The purpose of His choice is developed further on in Romans 9...
Vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
The Potter has the freedom to take of all of sinful mankind,
and make one vessel to show His mercy to, and one vessel to punish for the sins that they have willfully committed.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
we are back to that again? again, please explain WHY God "BEARS with MUCH LONGSUFFERING" the "vessels of destruction", IF they are hell-bound? The ONLY way to exaplain this is, 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward YOU, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.".
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, we are "back to that again".
I'm sorry that you find it so offensive, sir, but that is how I see it all being developed.
Per Romans 2:1-5, God, through His goodness, leads all men to repentance.
Per Acts of the Apostles 17:30, He commands all men to repent.
But He bears with them and their wickedness ( and their refusal to repent, which makes the new birth a necessity ), in His sight, for the sake of His elect.
He waits for the precious fruit of the earth, His works of righteousness that He has prepared unto glory.
I see that the context for the "usward" in 2 Peter 3:9 is the "beloved" from verse 8.
Therefore,
He is not willing that any of "you" ( the beloved, His elect ) perish, but that all of the beloved come to repentance.
Last edited:
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
hang on! I though that God "grants repentance" only to the "elect". In which case these "vessels of punishment", don't really have the ability to "repent"!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I understand from the Scriptures that He does indeed grant repentance only to His elect.
But I have no idea where you get the impression that so-called "Calvinists" teach that man's "inability" comes from actually being locked inside of something that they really don't want to be part of.
Rather, I hold that mankind does have the ability to repent...
We just don't, in and of ourselves, have the desire to do so.
I see the Bible teaching that we as men are completely dead in our relationship towards the Lord, and that the cause of it is our trespasses and sins;
and that because of our love of them and our hatred of God, our steadfast choice is to constantly turn our backs to Him.
He has allowed us to become darkened in our own minds and to hold the truth in unrighteousness ( Romans 1:18-32 )...
But He never did force us to ignore Him, to hate Him, or to ever think that He was anything other than gracious and merciful.
In fact, His word very clearly states in Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31,
that we should seek the Lord and find Him, and that He is not far from us...
In other words and in the final analysis, the "will not" becomes a "cannot".
Because of that willfull and constant hard-heartedness,
true repentance has to be granted to us through the new birth, also known as "regeneration".
So, instead of looking at the vessels of God's wrath ( anyone outside of Christ ) as being unwilling participants in a condition that they actually want to rid themselves of ( as "Calvinists" are constantly being charged with ), I look at mankind ( apart from the grace and mercy of God ) as being perfectly willing co-participants in a condition that we don't mind being in, and one that we would rather that God left us alone in.
I hope that that helps to explain how I see my own condition being,
before the Lord graciously opened my heart so that I would listen to His words...
Instead of automatically rejecting them like I did for the first 11 years of my life.
Last edited: