Help with Romans 11:20-21

[AustinC]

The idea of mere profession is not in the passage.

A mere professor would not have been graffed in to begin with:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Correct, the grafting in or cutting off has to do with a covenant, not with a confession.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe in the eternal security of the church-age believer, but I don't have an exposition that perfectly satisfies me when it comes to:
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The commentators I have read which defend eternal security did not truly tackle the verses head-on.
My own best answer for the moment is that the thou standest by faith is national, not individual.
I can relatively well make that case from the verses in context.
But I wish to have as good an answer as possible in relation to defending eternal security. Could you thus help me expound the passage without resorting to the amateurish and ubiquitous "this verse is poorly translated" escape?

Thanks

Only a few were born again. See Hebrews 11. The rest were wicked beyond belief. They forfeited the land promises before they ever reached Canaan. They worshipped Molech and other false gods thinking it was YHWH. When God finished their role ministering to the true believers he abolished circumcision. Thereby turning them into gentiles where they remain today. The Church at that time consisted of the saved believers and the unbelieving. Now it is believers only.

 

[George Antonios]

Correct, the grafting in or cutting off has to do with a covenant, not with a confession.

Go on. I'm listening.

 

[George Antonios]

Only a few were born again. See Hebrews 11. The rest were wicked beyond belief. They forfeited the land promises before they ever reached Canaan. They worshipped Molech and other false gods thinking it was YHWH. When God finished their role ministering to the true believers he abolished circumcision. Thereby turning them into gentiles where they remain today. The Church at that time consisted of the saved believers and the unbelieving. Now it is believers only.

Who is the thou in v.20? A lost Gentile? A saved Gentile? A "Christian" gentile nation?
And aren't cut off branches to be burned (Jn.15)?

 

[1689Dave]

Who is the thou in v.20? A lost Gentile? A saved Gentile? A "Christian" gentile nation?
And aren't cut off branches to be burned (Jn.15)?

“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:21–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[George Antonios]

“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:21–23 (KJV 1900)

A man that will not hear is man that will not believe.
Here Paul says thou standest by faith.

 

[Van]

The idea of mere profession is not in the passage.

A mere professor would not have been graffed in to begin with:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Lets look at the issue in more modern English:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The passage does not say those being addressed were in fact grafted in. The passage presents a conditional statement, if you were grafted in, do not be arrogant, but if you are arrogant, remember you are reliant upon actually being grafted in.

 

[MB]

I believe in the eternal security of the church-age believer, but I don't have an exposition that perfectly satisfies me when it comes to:
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The commentators I have read which defend eternal security did not truly tackle the verses head-on.
My own best answer for the moment is that the thou standest by faith is national, not individual.
I can relatively well make that case from the verses in context.
But I wish to have as good an answer as possible in relation to defending eternal security. Could you thus help me expound the passage without resorting to the amateurish and ubiquitous "this verse is poorly translated" escape?

Thanks

National for he Jew yes, but individual for the Gentile.
This I believe is your answer.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
In other words don't think of your self as being better than the Jew. The Jew can still be placed back in the root. They being broken off does not mean they are lost with out hope.
MB

 

[George Antonios]

Lets look at the issue in more modern English:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The passage does not say those being addressed were in fact grafted in. The passage presents a conditional statement, if you were grafted in, do not be arrogant, but if you are arrogant, remember you are reliant upon actually being grafted in.

The OP:

But I wish to have as good an answer as possible in relation to defending eternal security. Could you thus help me expound the passage without resorting to the amateurish and ubiquitous "this verse is poorly translated" escape?

+ see #2 in signature.

Changing the words of God is no way of doing theology. It's like cheating.

 

[George Antonios]

National for he Jew yes, but individual for the Gentile.
This I believe is your answer.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
In other words don't think of your self as being better than the Jew. The Jew can still be placed back in the root. They being broken off does not mean they are lost with out hope.
MB

But he goes on to say: take heed lest he also spare not thee in v.21.

 

[Van]

The OP:
+ see #2 in signature.
Changing the words of God is no way of doing theology. It's like cheating.

You are free to deny obvious truth and instead charge me with rewriting the text. But I quoted from the NASB95, Sir.

 

[George Antonios]

But I quoted from the NASB95, Sir

Precisely.

 

[AustinC]

Go on. I'm listening.

I already explained this in my first post.

 

[37818]

I do not follow.

One stands by faith. One's faith must be according to the will of God (Matthew 7:21). Romans 11:20 and context addresses the individual. Now if faith precedes sanctification then eternal security does not exist, Hebrews 10:29. According to John 17:17, 1 Peter 1:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 I understand sanctification to precede the faith and salvation which the faith precedes.

 

[MB]

But he goes on to say: take heed lest he also spare not thee in v.21.

Yes He does . We have to remember that God is warning us to not be high minded or proud, and boast as if we are better than they because they were broken off so that we could be grafted in. Salvation is eternal life. Jesus gives us eternal life and He says we will never die. No where does the passage state we would be lost once saved. How ever you know as well as I, many boast about being grafted in even claiming they have been given the Jews inheritance. they believe they have become God's elect. God only has one elect, the Jews.
Be assured George; Once we are saved we are always saved if not we are all wasting our time. Ask your self what He means by the words "Take heed" Being grafted into the root does not make us Jews. We are still a wild Olive branch. We are only fed by the root The Jew is a natural branch. They belong to God naturally.
When we become high minded we have pride thinking we are some how better than the Jew. With out the root we are not fed, yet this does not mean we are lost. If theJjew can be placed back into the root so can the Gentiles. There are lots of Christians who are not fed. Simply they are not going to church to be fed. Are they lost because they are not being fed?This is the same as I see it.
MB
MB

 

[George Antonios]

Now if faith precedes sanctification then eternal security does not exist, Hebrews 10:29.

Faith precedes sanctification.
Hebrews 10:29 is dispensationally aimed at tribulation believers, during which time loss of salvation will be a possibility.
Eternal security is only true for the church age.

 

[George Antonios]

Yes He does . We have to remember that God is warning us to not be high minded or proud, and boast as if we are better than they because they were broken off so that we could be grafted in. Salvation is eternal life. Jesus gives us eternal life and He says we will never die. No where does the passage state we would be lost once saved. How ever you know as well as I, many boast about being grafted in even claiming they have been given the Jews inheritance. they believe they have become God's elect. God only has one elect, the Jews.
Be assured George; Once we are saved we are always saved if not we are all wasting our time. Ask your self what He means by the words "Take heed" Being grafted into the root does not make us Jews. We are still a wild Olive branch. We are only fed by the root The Jew is a natural branch. They belong to God naturally.
When we become high minded we have pride thinking we are some how better than the Jew. With out the root we are not fed, yet this does not mean we are lost. If theJjew can be placed back into the root so can the Gentiles. There are lots of Christians who are not fed. Simply they are not going to church to be fed. Are they lost because they are not being fed?This is the same as I see it.
MB
MB

I affirm eternal security in the church age.
But the "he is just talking about professing Christians" argument is not supported by the text.
He is addressing actual believers.
At no point does a professing lost man: with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

 

[George Antonios]

Correct, the grafting in or cutting off has to do with a covenant, not with a confession.

Doesn't a man lose his salvation if he is cut off from the covenant?

 

[MB]

I affirm eternal security in the church age.
But the "he is just talking about professing Christians" argument is not supported by the text.
He is addressing actual believers.
At no point does a professing lost man: with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Nor does it say saved Gentiles
I would ask what is it really that feeds us. What is the root. As I see it what feeds me through a pastor or missionary is God's Holy Word. The Bible is the root of Judaism as well as Christianity. It feeds the lost as well as the saved. The lost can't be saved with out believing so they are fed the gospel. In other words the root has been given to the whole world. I'll live by the Gospel because I have been drawn in to it. It is far better than any other food and much more satisfying. Think about it maybe you are over looking the root right before your eyes.

The parable of the sower shows us all that we all need to believe the Word of God. Simply because it is the root. One was lost because he had not root. He wilted and died.
This is why we as Gentiles have been grafted in.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We should never forget that the Jew suffers loss because they are the natural branches and were broken off . They're election saved them Romans 11:11 Gentiles are saved because they first trusted in Christ. In the end all Jews will be saved. Most refuse to be fed most avoid Isiah 53 proof they have been broken off.They reject His Word.
MB

 

[MB]

But he goes on to say: take heed lest he also spare not thee in v.21.

I'm not sure but wasn't it Peter who said to examine your selves? To be sure you are really saved. I examine my self often. especially when doubt works it's way in.
MB