What Do You Believe about the Millennium?

[Scripture More Accurately]

Christ said he came to do the will of him that sent him. He did and said it’s finished. So, he has accomplished what e was sent to do. He will return to get his bride, the church. We’ll be gathered with him in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

To me, this shows it’s not a earthly kingdom. As David was king over Israel in the flesh, Christ is king over spiritual Israel, those truly born again.

Acts 2:29-32 KJV
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. [32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

This shows that God has already raised Him up to sit on the throne and reign over the true Israel of God.

Romans 9:6-8 KJV
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If God is unfaithful to His promises to the nation of Israel, you have no basis to be confident that He will be faithful to His promises to us.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Here is a literal mark that was not visible to the people;
Ezekiel 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

How do you know whether it was visible to them or not?

 

[Iconoclast]

How do you know whether it was visible to them or not?

Did they get the vision? or was it a mark for the angels not to destroy the believers?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Did they get the vision? or was it a mark for the angels not to destroy the believers?

Being a mark for angels does not mean the mark has to be an invisible mark. You seem to be assuming something that might be true or it might not be true.

Even if it was an invisible mark, so what?

 

[Iconoclast]

literal or symbolic? What event is being described?
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

literal or symbolic? What event is being described?
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The fact that I may not be able to answer definitively numerous questions such as these that you might pose does not mean that one has to take the position that being unable to answer them requires that they be symbolic.

Answering these questions would require the discussion of multiple parallel passages, which is beyond the scope of this discussion. Based on what we have already talked about, we are not going to agree on many of these passages.

I could pose numerous similar questions to you, but it would not advance the discussion . . .

 

[Iconoclast]

The fact that I may not be able to answer definitively numerous questions such as these that you might pose does not mean that one has to take the position that being unable to answer them requires that they be symbolic.

Answering these questions would require the discussion of multiple parallel passages, which is beyond the scope of this discussion. Based on what we have already talked about, we are not going to agree on many of these passages.

I could pose numerous similar questions to you, but it would not advance the discussion . . .

My suggestion is that it would be helpful to see how others let the scripture interpret the scripture.
When the same language is used in the Ot it should have a bearing upon the symbols in the new.

For your consideration;
Isaiah 34 King James Version (KJV)
34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.


This is a historical judgment, did the heaven
literally roll up like a scroll??
Here is the judgment of Babylon;
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Same language of Mt.24

 

[percho]

My notion lines up with plenty of scripture.

I underlined a part of your quote to show that I totally agree with that part. And, yes, He would bring them (the ones who died in Christ) to meet with those who had been raptured (the ones still alive at the Parousia). In all of this you have solid scriptural backing. But this business about them being "reunited with their bodies" is pure eisegesis. You are reading all of this into the text.

You wrote "The text does not teach any such thing about people being in Hades."

True. This particular text does not state that in so many words. But it assumes it.

Well, let me ask you: Who do you think was (or is in Hades)?

IMHO everyone who has died.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

What millennial position Christians hold is not a minor academic matter with no actual consequences. Scripture speaks of a binding of Satan for a thousand years in Revelation 20:1-3; what believers hold about whether that 1000-year binding has already taken place or not has profound consequences for their lives:

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If one were to conclude that Satan has already been bound in this manner, but in reality he has not, that would play right into the hands of the devil and help him greatly to advance his kingdom and unrighteousness.

To decide that Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic and has already happened is no minor doctrinal matter!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What millennial position Christians hold is not a minor academic matter with no actual consequences. Scripture speaks of a binding of Satan for a thousand years in Revelation 20:1-3; what believers hold about whether that 1000-year binding has already taken place or not has profound consequences for their lives:

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If one were to conclude that Satan has already been bound in this manner, but in reality he has not, that would play right into the hands of the devil and help him greatly to advance his kingdom and unrighteousness.

To decide that Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic and has already happened is no minor doctrinal matter!

The point is that Satan has been bound in that he can no longer deceive the nations. This is shown by Matthew 12:24-30; Mark 4:22-27; Luke 11:14-23. Satan is the 'strong man' and before the coming of Christ, he had the Gentile nations securely in his power. But now a stronger than he has come, and he cannot prevent the nations from coming to Christ as they have been doing since Pentecost and are doing to this very day. Christ is the Rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:2 and He is, as it were, sacking the borders of hell and releasing its prisoners. Note that He is given a crown which is a Stephanos, a crown of victory, rather than a diademos, a crown of power, which is what the devil and the first beast have in Revelation 12 & 13.

It has been rightly said that the position of Satan is like that of Hitler after D Day. He cannot win; his territory is being slowly but steadily taken away. Yet there are still great battles to be fought and setbacks to be overcome, just as there were for the allies in WW2 - Arnhem and the Battle of the Bulge.

Let me say that I am not Postmil but Amil. I do not believe that the world will be won for Christ before He returns. As the number of converts to Christ increases, so does the persecution. In Britain today, and maybe in the USA, it seems almost that Satan could be in semi-retirement, just stirring himself from time to time to whisper in some Pastor's ear, "Keep it up; you're doing a great job!" But in China, India, Iran and elsewhere, the kingdom of God is growing, even in the face of the most vicious persecution and the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail. I heard recently that in ten years the number of Christians in Algeria has risen from 1,000 to half a million and as a result, churches are being closed and Pastors imprisoned.

 

[asterisktom]

No, I am not reading anything into the text. The verb for "rise" is an intransitive verb that means "to rise." It does not mean to raise disembodied spirits (into the air or anywhere else).

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον·


[GING] ἀνίστημι
ἀνίστημι—1. trans. raise, erect, raise up Ac 9:41. Of the dead raise (up), bring to life J 6:39f; Ac 2:24; 13:34. In the sense cause to appear or to be born Mt 22:24; Ac 3:22.—2. intr. (2 aor. and all mid. forms) rise, stand up, get up Mt 26:62; Lk 11:7f; rise from the dead Mk 9:10, 31; 1 Th 4:16. Short for stand up and go Mk 14:60; Lk 4:38. In the sense appear, come Mt 12:41; Hb 7:11, 15. Weakened to set out, get ready Mk 2:14; Lk 1:39; Ac 8:26; 10:20. [Cf. anastatic, printed from plates in relief.] [pg 16]

Well, that is a whole lot of cut and paste that has nothing to do with my point.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

God was and is faithful to Israel. He sent His only begotten son to die for their sins. If they don’t believe in Him, where he is they cannot go.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[asterisktom]

IMHO everyone who has died.

I agree if the "has" is changed to "had".

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Well, that is a whole lot of cut and paste that has nothing to do with my point.

It has everything to do with what the text says. The verb anisthmi does not signify that disembodied spirits rise from Hades. It speaks of bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ.

 

[asterisktom]

It has everything to do with what the text says. The verb anisthmi does not signify that disembodied spirits rise from Hades. It speaks of bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The verb anisthmi does not signify either. It means lit. "stand up again" - raise , resurrect, etc. (various shades of meaning).

I do not get "spirits rise from Hades" from that single word. I get it from evidence elsewhere in Scripture.
You do not get "bodily resurrection from the dead" from that single word. You get it from mistaken tradition.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The verb anisthmi does not signify either. It means lit. "stand up again" - raise , resurrect, etc. (various shades of meaning).

I do not get "spirits rise from Hades" from that single word. I get it from overwhelming evidence elsewhere in Scripture.
You do not get "bodily resurrection from the dead" from that single word. You get it from mistaken tradition.

Wrong. The text says that God is going to bring those who sleep in Jesus with Jesus (1 Thess. 4:14).

Jesus is going to come from heaven. The spirits of those who sleep in Jesus are already in heaven with him. Their spirits are not in Hades and never were.

When Jesus comes to catch up the saints, God will bring the spirits of those saints with Jesus from heaven to be united with their resurrected bodies that will arise as incorruptible bodies.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, I am not reading anything into the text. The verb for "rise" is an intransitive verb that means "to rise." It does not mean to raise disembodied spirits (into the air or anywhere else).

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον·


[GING] ἀνίστημι
ἀνίστημι—1. trans. raise, erect, raise up Ac 9:41. Of the dead raise (up), bring to life J 6:39f; Ac 2:24; 13:34. In the sense cause to appear or to be born Mt 22:24; Ac 3:22.—2. intr. (2 aor. and all mid. forms) rise, stand up, get up Mt 26:62; Lk 11:7f; rise from the dead Mk 9:10, 31; 1 Th 4:16. Short for stand up and go Mk 14:60; Lk 4:38. In the sense appear, come Mt 12:41; Hb 7:11, 15. Weakened to set out, get ready Mk 2:14; Lk 1:39; Ac 8:26; 10:20. [Cf. anastatic, printed from plates in relief.] [pg 16]

Absolutely right! The Lord Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits from the dead, and He rose in a physical body (Luke 24:36-43). Therefore we too shall rise in bodies that are changed and 'spiritual' in that they will no longer be subject to decay, yet are 'flesh and bones' like our Lord's body. The textual gymnastics that Hyper-Preterists have to perform in order to promote their beliefs are remarkable.
I am not by any means a Dispensationalist, but I would a thousand times sooner be one than a Hyper-preterist!

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely right! The Lord Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits from the dead, and He rose in a physical body (Luke 24:36-43). Therefore we too shall rise in bodies that are changed and 'spiritual' in that they will no longer be subject to decay, yet are 'flesh and bones' like our Lord's body. The textual gymnastics that Hyper-Preterists have to perform in order to promote their beliefs are remarkable.
I am not by any means a Dispensationalist, but I would a thousand times sooner be one than a Hyper-preterist!

Dispy not heresy, but full preterism is!

 

[asterisktom]

Absolutely right! The Lord Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits from the dead, and He rose in a physical body (Luke 24:36-43). Therefore we too shall rise in bodies that are changed and 'spiritual' in that they will no longer be subject to decay, yet are 'flesh and bones' like our Lord's body. The textual gymnastics that Hyper-Preterists have to perform in order to promote their beliefs are remarkable.
I am not by any means a Dispensationalist, but I would a thousand times sooner be one than a Hyper-preterist!

Yes, Jesus Christ arose in a physical body. It would be heretical to believe otherwise. And no preterist I know has ever taught that.

But then we get into your "textual gymnastics", Jeff. You act as if Paul never wrote I Corinthians 15:50:

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Our bodies will indeed be spiritual. They will be isaggeloi - "like the angels", as Jesus told the Sadducees in Luke 20.

Do angels have flesh and bones?
Or flesh and blood?

That passage in Luke (and the Synoptic cross-references) along with 1 Cor. 15:44, 49-50 and other verses give ample proof that we will have spiritual, non-physical bodies.

Just like Christ has now.,

 

[tyndale1946]

I wanted to direct this to the OP poll because he seem to have left one out... I guess it could be in the other or not sure category but it is the rarest of all... Now brethren on here know what my stand is, read post number 20 and 23... So my Dad who was a very godly Christian man, long gone to be with the Lord... I posed this same question to him many years ago, what position did he hold?

He said men can say what they want and believe what they will about the last hour but when it comes right down to it, men WILL NEVER stand in the way of the plans of God... That is why I am a pan-millennialist!... What is going to happen will happen as God intended it to happen and NO MAN will change, what will happen, at that day... So what is the right viewpoint?... GODS!... Brother Glen