False accusations.

[AustinC]

Don't be a @Yeshua1, provide some scripture to prove your assertion.



Yep, pretty sure this thread is about you.



Don't be a @Yeshua1, provide some scripture to prove your assertion.



God can and does do that. Luke 1:41-44



...meaning.....what? Infants in the eternal flame?

Romans 3:21-25

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 5:10-16

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

Psalm 51:1-7

Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Meaning all person's God chooses are saved by grace...including infants who die in the womb.

 

[kyredneck]

The notion that Romans 9:11 teaches they not yet born are innocent is Pelagian for the purpose of unconditional election.

I know zilch about Pelagian. Once again, this is about the work of Christ, a 'general atonement', in which every one born, not just the elect, benefits from the cross:

18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.

 

[AustinC]

Without a general redemption, yes.

Right. At conception we are corrupt by the nature of the curse and need a Redeemer.

General redemption is a figment of your imagination.

 

[kyredneck]

Meaning all person's God chooses are saved by grace...including infants who die in the womb.

What happens with non-elect infants that die?

 

[kyredneck]

Right. At conception we are corrupt by the nature of the curse and need a Redeemer.

What happens with non-elect infants that die?

 

[37818]

. . . Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent . . .

I do not believe anyone is born innocent on the account of a general atonement. But on the basis of a general atonement those who are not yet of an age of reason where they can understand and believe what Christ did are given the free gift should they die before that age of reason. So they are in the true vine, being in the book of life by reason of the general atonement.

 

[37818]

Right. At conception we are corrupt by the nature of the curse and need a Redeemer.

We agree on this.

 

[kyredneck]

I do not believe anyone is born innocent on the account of a general atonement. But on the basis of a general atonement those who are not yet of an age of reason where they can understand and believe what Christ did are given the free gift should they die before that age of reason. So they are in the true vine, being in the book of life by reason of the general atonement.

What happens with non-elect infants that die?

 

[Van]

What happens with non-elect infants that die?

Here we have the usual banality. We are invited to speculate and declare what is not said or implied in scripture.
This is how the liberal bible interpreters operate. If you cannot refute their speculation using specific scripture, they continue to proclaim fallacy.

Another tactic of liberal bible "experts" is to take an ambiguous text, and claim it supports their false doctrine. For example, apart from the Law, there is no sin. What this means, in my opinion, is there is no penalty for unknowingly trespassing the express will of God. However, at the same time, there is another penalty for unknowingly violating God's will. Note, with Paul, that people died before the Law was given through Moses.

 

[AustinC]

We agree on this.

Then you just changed your mind, because your earlier statements say you believe everyone is in the book of life until they decide to not be.

 

[37818]

What happens with non-elect infants that die?

This is a non sequitur. God is fully omniscient. From the point of view by dying as infants they are not removed from the vine or the book of life. And that it was the general atonement that puts everyone in the vine and in the book to begin with.

 

[37818]

What is the point of Jesus' teaching, Mark 10:15, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein?"

 

[37818]

Then you just changed your mind, because your earlier statements say you believe everyone is in the book of life until they decide to not be.

Again, you have my view wrong. The lost do not know their names to be in the book to make any decisions to keep it there. The atonement is the reason names are in the book from the beginning. And only those who overcome have the promise that for them their name will never be removed. 1 John 5:1-4, 1 John 3:23, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8. Revelation 20:15. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

 

[Reynolds]

Calvinism, Arminianism and other.
When false accusations are made, meaning accusing the other side of believing what the other side does not believe, it never persuades.

Each of us comes to our own points of view for reasons. The reasons may not be good reasons to another person.

Common ground. The written word of God should be our common ground.

The points of disagreement are more than the 5 points of the TULIP.

1 Corinthians 1:10 , "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

No one believer can fix this or make obedience to this insruction to be followed.

Think. Do you really think the other fellow really sets out to believe what is false?

There is how we know what we know comes before what we know.

How we understand words.
Who we believe.
The logic we use.

How can we frame what one believes over against the other person we disagree with without accusing that person of believing something that person does not believe?

Much of the problem is die to the fact that most people claiming to be Calvinists believe vastly different things. Same true for "arminians".

 

[Yeshua1]

Without a general redemption, yes.

All save for Jesus born in a state affected by the fall, as sin natured sinners by both natureand by choice

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture please.

One more time:

"9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

(no little babies in hell)"

Paul was 'alive' once, and then he 'died' (the letter kills). Want to explain that, backed up with some scripture?

How can we be spiritual children of Satan and enemies of God and still be "alive"

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, you have my view wrong. The lost do not know their names to be in the book to make any decisions to keep it there. The atonement is the reason names are in the book from the beginning. And only those who overcome have the promise that for them their name will never be removed. 1 John 5:1-4, 1 John 3:23, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8. Revelation 20:15. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

ONLY the names of the Elect of God will be in that book, and they will NEVER be removed!

 

[Yeshua1]

Right. At conception we are corrupt by the nature of the curse and need a Redeemer.

General redemption is a figment of your imagination.

So he holds to a Universalism of some degree?

 

[37818]

Much of the problem is d[o] to the fact that most people claiming to be Calvinists believe vastly different things. Same true for "arminians".

My view is other. At best a 2 point Calvinist (T - - - P). Conditional unmerited election, unlimited Atonement, resistable grace Acts of the Apostles 7:51. On the sixth point, faith precedes regeneration.

 

[37818]

ONLY the names of the Elect of God will be in that book, and they will NEVER be removed!

"Only . . . the Elect" not Biblical. Psalms 69:27-28.