False accusations.

[37818]

Babies In Hell 2
"He bought the whole field, but He particularly bought the treasure that was hidden in that field. "The Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.""

Mark 10:13-15, ". . . they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

Little children, many of which are yet too young to believe. They are safe in the finish work of Christ who died for them. So they are safe if they die as little children and so need to be brought up in the faith so when they come of age can believe and be also saved.

John 3:1-4, "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ."

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

Mark 10:13-15, ". . . they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

Little children, many of which are yet too young to believe. They are safe in the finish work of Christ who died for them. So they are safe if they die as little children and so need to be brought up in the faith so when they come of age can believe and be also saved.

John 3:1-4, "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ."

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

I am glad you quoted Matthew 18. The context of Jesus teaching helps us to understand that the "little children" also believe. This means that some little ones don't believe. I bring this up because the "little children" are those who are new born babes in Christ. This is not necessarily an age statement, but instead a spiritual birth statement. Therefore, if the Pharisees cause a new believer to sin, it would be better if they had a millstone tied around their neck and be cast into the sea.
Jesus teaching should be a word of caution to all Christians who are mentoring those who are newly born again. Heaping legalism upon a new Christian and adding false teaching to these young ones should strike terror in the teacher.

 

[kyredneck]

@37818
Briefly, directly, what's your point in post #41?

 

[37818]

@37818
Briefly, directly, what's your point in post #41?

It is my view in the general redemption everyone starts out in Christ before coming of an age to believe. And in order to stay or again be a child in God's kingdom we must be born over, John 3:7.

Everyone starts out in the true vine, John 15:2. And must later abide 1 John 3:6. John 15:6.

Everyone starts out in the book of life and of age must be born of God not to be removed, 1 John 5:1-5, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 20:15.

 

[1689Dave]

You have here falsely accusing me of judging motives as being evil, have you not? The fruit of the Spirit is, "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith." None of which has been called in question. But that truth should be spoken in love. And I have been falsely accused of Univrsalism because I believe in a general redemption as being taught in the word of God, is this not so? Is what I am saying here not true? I believe in particular redemption as a key part of the general redemption, and believe it cannot not be the case.

You cannot judge people's motives without sinning.

 

[AustinC]

It is my view in the general redemption everyone starts out in Christ before coming of an age to believe. And in order to stay or again be a child in God's kingdom we must be born over, John 3:7.

Everyone starts out in the true vine, John 15:2. And must later abide 1 John 3:6. John 15:6.

Everyone starts out in the book of life and of age must be born of God not to be removed, 1 John 5:1-5, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 20:15.

Wow, that's Pelagian theology. Everyone is born perfect and holy...until they sin. The possibility of sinless perfection exists outside of Jesus redemption.
Care to rethink your ideas?

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow, that's Pelagian theology. Everyone is born perfect and holy...until they sin. The possibility of sinless perfection exists outside of Jesus redemption.
Care to rethink your ideas?

So all of us are born sinless and in right standing with God, and do not become lost and sinners until we decide to do that, so why not abort all early to keep them saved?

 

[37818]

Wow, that's Pelagian theology. Everyone is born perfect and holy...

You cannot understand what I wrote.

It is my view in the general redemption everyone starts out in Christ . .

Aside from the fact you reject general redemption, why would Christ need to die for those who have not sinned as you suppose a Pelagian theology.

LOL.

 

[Yeshua1]

You cannot understand what I wrote.

Aside from the fact you reject general redemption, why would Christ need to die for those who have not sinned as you suppose a Pelagian theology.

LOL.

Are all born in state of innocence and forgiveness then?

 

[AustinC]

You cannot understand what I wrote.

Aside from the fact you reject general redemption, why would Christ need to die for those who have not sinned as you suppose a Pelagian theology.

LOL.

I understand completely. You wrote:

It is my view in the general redemption everyone starts out in Christ before coming of an age to believe. And in order to stay or again be a child in God's kingdom we must be born over, John 3:7.

Everyone starts out in the true vine, John 15:2. And must later abide 1 John 3:6. John 15:6.

Everyone starts out in the book of life and of age must be born of God not to be removed, 1 John 5:1-5, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 20:15.

The bolded assertions by you are Pelagian assertions. You then add a twist that when we come to an age of accountability, we have to then make a decision to believe and be reborn a second time in order to maintain that initial perfection, which all humans are born with.

Perhaps there is another brother or sister here who can walk you through the theological errors you are asserting and how they differ from orthodox Christianity. I believe I have tried to show you how your assertions lead down an untenable trail that is ultimately heresy, but you cannot or will not see what I am explaining to you. Therefore, I will leave you to ponder your error and know that I consider your theology unbiblical.

 

[MB]

Wow, that's Pelagian theology. Everyone is born perfect and holy...until they sin. The possibility of sinless perfection exists outside of Jesus redemption.
Care to rethink your ideas?

Typical claim of an false accuser. If the under lined is true why aren't you perfect? Every Christian doctrine has at least a few points that are true. Except Calvinism it's completely false.
MB

 

[37818]

Are all born in state of innocence and forgiveness then?

If born innocent why would they need any redemption and forgiveness?

 

[37818]

I understand completely. You wrote:

The bolded assertions by you are Pelagian assertions. You then add a twist that when we come to an age of accountability, we have to then make a decision to believe and be reborn a second time in order to maintain that initial perfection, which all humans are born with.

Perhaps there is another brother or sister here who can walk you through the theological errors you are asserting and how they differ from orthodox Christianity. I believe I have tried to show you how your assertions lead down an untenable trail that is ultimately heresy, but you cannot or will not see what I am explaining to you. Therefore, I will leave you to ponder your error and know that I consider your theology unbiblical.

You are irrational in your Pelagian false accusation.

 

[AustinC]

You are irrational in your Pelagian false accusation.

No. You openly state a Pelagian view and then you deny it. This is you being irrational. Just once, actually read what you wrote as your belief and see it for what it is. You want to have a Pelagian theology and deny it at the same time. If you want to keep the view you espoused, then you have to own it as Pelagian.

 

[Van]

Lets see:

You are a universalist.
You are a Pelagian.
You hate God.

So what group of posters systemically make false charges rather than explain why their views conflict with scripture?

By falsely accusing others, the topic turns to the behavior of others, rather than the doctrine being questioned.

Even if the doctrine asserted is bogus, a person also holding bogus beliefs might use the false accusation ploy in an unstudied attempt at refutation.

For example a person might claim we were not "made sinners" but became sinners when first we volitionally sinned. But rather than present the verse that says we were made sinners, an unstudied person might make a charge.

 

[kyredneck]

If born innocent why would they need any redemption and forgiveness?

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

(no little babies in hell)

 

[Yeshua1]

You are irrational in your Pelagian false accusation.

Are we born with sin natures?

 

[kyredneck]

It is my view in the general redemption everyone starts out in Christ before coming of an age to believe.

"General redemption" is bad articulation. Perhaps if you stopped calling it that some of these knee jerk accusations would cease.

Call it 'General Atonement' ...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.

Born innocent is not equivalent to being in Christ. Esau was born innocent but God hated him before he had any works to be judged by.

 

[Yeshua1]

"General redemption" is bad articulation. Perhaps if you stopped calling it that some of these knee jerk accusations would cease.

Call it 'General Atonement' ...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.

Born innocent is not equivalent to being in Christ. Esau was born innocent but God hated him before he had any works to be judged by.

We are all born spiritual dead in Adam!

 

[kyredneck]

We are all born spiritual dead in Adam!

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

(no little babies in hell)