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Do the aborted and babies that die . . .
- Thread starter 37818
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Yes, not due to them being innocent, but due to the Cross of Christ!
37818
Well-Known Member
So you believe childern too young to be born again perish in Hell?
What age is too young for God though?
King David's baby boy lived seven days.. David, while the baby was sick, fasted and prayed and thought perhaps God would let him live.
When the baby died, David got up from the ground, took a bath, anointed himself, and began to eat again. His mourning was while the baby was sick.
Once the baby died after only seven days, he said, "I will go to him, but he will not come back to me."
David understood the separation that death brings. The baby was not coming back. BUT, he said that he would be with the baby one day."
If that seven-day-old baby went to hell to burn and be tormented with worms for eternity - then so did King David.
David's own words - he would be with the baby again.
When the baby died, David got up from the ground, took a bath, anointed himself, and began to eat again. His mourning was while the baby was sick.
Once the baby died after only seven days, he said, "I will go to him, but he will not come back to me."
David understood the separation that death brings. The baby was not coming back. BUT, he said that he would be with the baby one day."
If that seven-day-old baby went to hell to burn and be tormented with worms for eternity - then so did King David.
David's own words - he would be with the baby again.
37818
Well-Known Member
You answer that regarding for whom Christ died. Do you really think new born babies that die must believe the gosple too?
No
Titus Tarnum
Member
Why couldn't God just ask them if they wanted to be with Him after they died; what person would say no when presented the gospel in Heaven! That would really be irresistible grace[emoji3]
Do you think Abraham's Bosom was a real place; I think it was because no one could go to Heaven as part of the body of Christ until the first born arrived. Then when Jesus died He went to paradise that day and when He rose again He emptied Abraham's Bosom after giving everyone there the Holy Spirit, so if God could give these people the Holy Spirit after they died and before they went to heaven why couldn't He witness to the unborn and give them the Holy Spirit as well?
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So you're saying YES, they go to the flame due to the cross of Christ? Go back and reread the question.
I voted NO! Those who say yes, innocent little babies will be sent to the eternal flame must have a skewed view of the righteous judgment of God:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God. Ro 2
What works do newborn infants have to be judged by?
IMO, the non-elect don't die until age of accountability. Why? Because of the righteous judgment of God.
The elect are covered by The Atonement.
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God. Ro 2
What works do newborn infants have to be judged by?
IMO, the non-elect don't die until age of accountability. Why? Because of the righteous judgment of God.
The elect are covered by The Atonement.
Do babies deserve heaven? Are they not also born hell bound unless and when God intervenes on their behalf?
Not one of us 'deserve heaven'. We all deserve hell. Why? Because of our sinful deeds and imaginations. What deeds does a baby have to deserve hell?
God DID indeed intervene on their behalf at the cross, wiping the slate clean by removing the judgment of Adam's transgression for all men:
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5
No, they're not born hell bound. As Paul stated:
And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7:9
That's all of our stories, everyone of us.
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It sounds like you are saying that aborted babies are going to burn in hell forever with worms tormenting them forever because they were aborted and had no chance to hear the gospel.
They're hellbound because they are murdered is what I understand you to mean.
Luke 18
15Now they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16But Jesus called for [g]the little ones, saying, “Allow the children to come to Me, and do not [h]forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
37818
Well-Known Member
You are just making stuff up. Why doesn't God then just give everybody who die a chance to decide then?
Now Jesus, as I understand this, emptied Sheol/Hades and moved Paraldise to Heaven at His ascension, per Ephesians 4:8.
Titus Tarnum
Member
I'm not making this up; when Jesus went into the heart of the earth did He go to Abrahams bosom which you could say is paradise or did he do something else?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Matt23:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The way I see it Abrahams bosom was where faithful people stayed until Christ the first born was resurrected.
Rom 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Also Psalm 89:27 and Hebrews 1:6
On top of waiting for Jesus in Abrahams bosom The patriarchs would've also been waiting for the Holy Spirit since the New Covenant hadn't been ordained, so the Spirit of God hadn't been given to humanity, and they had to have the Spirit of Christ if they were going to heaven.
Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
So if the dead patriarchs could receive the Spirit after death couldn't a child that has died? This shouldn't be a hard question for anyone identifying with Calvinism because God sovereignty trumps choice so God wouldn't need the child's permission to give them the Holy Spirit, but like I said, why couldn't God say to the child "would you like to stay with me forever?" and then give them His Holy Spirit? There is very little explaining how God treats a child that has passed away before they are even conscious of the world besides David's child which Scarlett O. mentioned earlier. David was confident that his child would be accessible to him when he died so how did that child get saved? If you doubt the operation that I've proposed propose something else for this child please?
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37818
Well-Known Member
We would agree to Paradise being where Abraham was.
Here we seem to disagree. The faithful dead as you refer to them would stay in Paradise. And Paradise would not be moved until Christ's ascension, per Epehsians 4:8.
Romans 8:9 refers to living persons not yet phyisically dead, see Romans 8:16.
Now how the Holy Spirit is with those in Paradise would be by His omnipresence, see John 14:17. Not with them yet as with living believers today. Since the Paradise being moved and the Holy Spirt being sent to believers on earth would not happen until Christ's ascension, John 16:7 and Ephesians 4:8.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Check this out. Not worms but their worm in the singular never dies, see Mark 9:48. Because both the body and soul die in the second death, Matthew 10:28, James 5:20, Ezekiel 18:4. When Jesus soul died on the cross and He was still conscious. Psalms 22:1, Isaiah 53:10, check the Greek translated "Life" in John 10:15, Psalms 22:6, ". . . I am a worm, and no man; . . ." And that death of His soul was completed and over before He physically died for the purpose of the resurrection, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." The atonement part was completed, and that word "accomplished," is the same word meaning "paid in full" translated, "It is finished," John 19:30 when Jesus by His own volition physically died, John 10:17-18, "
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." By which He would send His again now living soul to paradise in the nether world aka Hades, Sheol, see Acts of the Apostles 2:27-31. Paradise would later be moved at His ascension per Ephesians 4:8.
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