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Do the aborted and babies that die . . .

Do the aborted and babies that die go to Hell?


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Aaron

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Hi Aaron, the subject title may be deceiving it's simply asking if babies born or unborn or children who haven't come to consciousness, go to heaven or not when they die. The subject matter fairly quickly broke down into a discussion debating that elect people who have their name in the book of life are those who are saved and it doesn't matter if they're a baby or not. If you would like my opinion on it, which is probably the most unique, I posted in 9, 18, 21, 63 and 116. Topics normally close after around 130 posts so if you want to join in there is still time! God bless you[emoji3]


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I didn't have to read them all to know where you stand. The whole difficulty with the eternal state of those who die in infancy lies in the carnal notions we have about them. Men look on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. We have no reason but superstition to imagine infant ghosts bewildered at either judgment or glory. These are spirits that know exactly what is going on and why, and in the Resurrection of the just and the unjust, they won't be raised as infants, just as the octogenarian won't be raised an aged one.

What we cannot do, is imagine exceptions to the conditions of acceptance, and that is faith in Christ. We need to adjust our thinking about infants, not the Gospel.
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
I am just trying to wrap my head around some concepts; God is the only perfect being and is incapable of sin. God loves to create; it is part of His nature, but when God creates He doesn't create another God He creates something that's less than Himself that has the capacity to sin, degrade.
God makes a way for His creation, which is created in His image, to be free of sin by adoption into His son, Himself.
Because God is omniscient He knows His entire plan and knows who will be born even though sin and death will be part of the equation.
God supposedly in advance determines who will be elect and who will be damned and writes the elect peoples names in a book, except I don't see where people in the Book are called elect? 1 Peter 1:2 is the closest i can find, but that doesn't say anything about the Book. Rev 17:8 is a lot closer but still doesn't specifically say elect and neither does Rev 20:15. Is it an assumption that the Book only contains the names of the elect? If only elect people's names are said to be in the Book that would define the Book's function.
If this is only an assumption that leaves room to define the Book of Life as something else and that would undercut what some people assume about God's intentions when it comes to saving and making people elect. If you don't believe people are made elect, but have always been elect, then the process of becoming elect is a useless formality; why pay the blood price for a person's sin and adopt them into your family if they have always been part of that family. This concept says elect can do nothing but be elect and the damned can do nothing but be damned and surprisingly I have to partially agree. If God is omniscient then He has always known who is elect and who is damned, but I can't agree that God's intention was to create good people and bad people and He succeeded on both accounts, literally making God the creator of evil people. I believe God made humanity imperfect so that they have a capacity to sin but aren't directly created for evil. Instead, God created humanity and some failed to be good, due to the imperfection inherent in anything that isn't God. God didn't create good and evil people and they both worked perfectly, but God created humanity good, and humanity failed to be good.
With that said if God created humanity initially good, and everyone that God knows will be born wasn't declared bad until Adam actually sinned, then maybe everyone that God knew would be born had their name in the Book of Life because it was a book declaring everyone who would live through Adam, who was the creation of Jesus Himself; hence the name "The Lambs Book of Life. Then it is a book of creation and not a book of salvation.
If it is a book of creation, and everyone's name starts out in it, then when Jesus in Rev 3:5 discusses blotting someone out of the Book it could be He is talking about people who haven't been declared elect and you have one reason now that people can have their names blotted from the Book; that being someone who doesn't overcome. Another reason that I see would be getting the mark of the beast.
Now you don't have to take Rev 3:5 out of the context of a warning to the worst church and say that Jesus was actually encouraging the Church that He would never blot anyone's name out of the Book; a stretch that you are forced to make if you believe only the elect have their names in the Book.

As far as names not being written, God also says "depart from me I never knew you"; why, because when your name is blotted from His Book there isn't a record of your creation any longer...


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Paul teaches in Romans 5 that God created from the same lump people saved by grace and the rest damned for destruction.

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)

Paul later says in Ephesians the purpose of creation was to use the Church to make known his manifold wisdom to the created order.

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” Ephesians 3:9–10 (KJV 1900)

There is no understanding of God apart from sin. No Goodness, no wrath, no sovereignty, no love, no mercy, no justice..... Think about how necessary sin is in order to reveal God to creation.
 
I didn't have to read them all to know where you stand. The whole difficulty with the eternal state of those who die in infancy lies in the carnal notions we have about them. Men look on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. We have no reason but superstition to imagine infant ghosts bewildered at either judgment or glory. These are spirits that know exactly what is going on and why, and in the Resurrection of the just and the unjust, they won't be raised as infants, just as the octogenarian won't be raised an aged one.

What we cannot do, is imagine exceptions to the conditions of acceptance, and that is faith in Christ. We need to adjust our thinking about infants, not the Gospel.

Excellent chapter describing the sovereignty of God! The question is did God actively create evil? "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated; Did god make Esau sell his birthright or did God know Esau was going to sell his birthright? Did God know in advance and use the circumstances to accomplish his desires or did God put it in Esau's heart to sell his birthright and then condemn him for it?
9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
Does God endure with long-suffering evil that He has created Himself?
Is it God's intention that you be evil or does God use the circumstances that you are evil?
Is the Clay evil or good? Does God start out with evil clay and good clay or does start out with Adams clay which when left alone is not going to be good in the end?

It seems you believe like everyone else that before the foundation of the world evil and good were created by God and proven because elect peoples names are in the book which I don't see.

And before all of this in a part you didn't feel you had to read my question was why does death stop God from witnessing to a baby who dies? If God can give someone the Holy Spirit after they die why can't he give the Holy Spirit to a baby after they die?
One of the points I made is for Calvinism the sovereignty of God should be superior to man's choice but yet everyone here is saying in so many words that the baby didn't get to choose so they die; just kind of weird to me…


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1689Dave

Well-Known Member
“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)

“A man’s heart deviseth his way: But the LORD directeth his steps.” Proverbs 16:9 (KJV 1900)

etc.
 
I didn't have to read them all to know where you stand. The whole difficulty with the eternal state of those who die in infancy lies in the carnal notions we have about them. Men look on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. We have no reason but superstition to imagine infant ghosts bewildered at either judgment or glory. These are spirits that know exactly what is going on and why, and in the Resurrection of the just and the unjust, they won't be raised as infants, just as the octogenarian won't be raised an aged one.

What we cannot do, is imagine exceptions to the conditions of acceptance, and that is faith in Christ. We need to adjust our thinking about infants, not the Gospel.

Sorry, my reply was meant for 1689 Dave


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Someone said earlier, and I don't have time right now to look it up, that if God wanted everyone to be elect everyone would be elect, Which basically means God wants some to be evil because it's in His capacity to make everybody good… That's what you get when you say only the elect are in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

I am all about God's sovereignty but it is a question of desire for me; God knew before the foundation of the world that there would be wicked people but did God want them or were they an undesirable consequences of creation?
Was everyone's name in the Book and as time marches on God had to blot the failures names from His book, showing that the book is a book of creation or did God only put in the book the names of the people he wanted saved showing it it's a book of salvation?
 
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Yeshua1

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Not one of us 'deserve heaven'. We all deserve hell. Why? Because of our sinful deeds and imaginations. What deeds does a baby have to deserve hell?



God DID indeed intervene on their behalf at the cross, wiping the slate clean by removing the judgment of Adam's transgression for all men:

18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

No, they're not born hell bound. As Paul stated:
And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7:9

That's all of our stories, everyone of us.
Babies still are included as being under the fall of Adam, as being guilty in Him, and the benefits of the Cross only wiped the slate clean for the redeemed in Christ!
 

Yeshua1

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It sounds like you are saying that aborted babies are going to burn in hell forever with worms tormenting them forever because they were aborted and had no chance to hear the gospel.

They're hellbound because they are murdered is what I understand you to mean.
NO, I am saying that God has chosen to have all aborted infants get to heaven due to the Cross of Christ! They cannot believe unto Lord Jesus, but God still has provided for them the Lamb!
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Nicodemus' question, John 3:4, was to what Jesus said in John 3:3.

But. Nicodemus' question, John 3:4, also fits . . .
Matthew 18:3
Mark 10:15
Luke 18:17
 

kyredneck

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Site Supporter
Does God visit the iniquity of the fathers unto the children of the 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate him?

You're way off base if you're saying God sends babies to hell on account of their father's sins. In fact, that's awful! And why read infinity in torment into that?

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, Ex 20

'Visiting the father's sin unto the fourth generation' is an explanation to the Exodus generation concerning their bondage BECAUSE of what their fathers did to Joseph in betraying him and selling him into bondage. AND it was precisely the fourth generation that came out of Egypt:

16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations: Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari; and the years of the life of Levi were a hundred thirty and seven years.
17 The sons of Gershon: Libni and Shimei, according to their families.
18 And the sons of Kohath: Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel; and the years of the life of Kohath were a hundred thirty and three years.
19 And the sons of Merari: Mahli and Mushi. These are the families of the Levites according to their generations.
20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father`s sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were a hundred and thirty and seven years. Ex 6

The fourth generation came out of Egypt just as it was precisely prophesied to Abraham:

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again..... Gen 15
 

Salty

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Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1230 am (EDT) Tue, / 930 PM PDT
 

Aaron

Member
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Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

No one is born (or conceived) with purity of heart.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Names in the book does not in and of itself insure one's name will not be blotted out, Psalms 69:27-28. Unless one is born of God, 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5.
Sigh, you seem to be looking for ways that humans can thwart God's will. Such a desire is strange to me, thus your desire to have human will be greater than God's will is strange.
 
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