Do the aborted and babies that die . . .

[Iconoclast]

That is an interpertation.

Mark 10:15, John 3:4, Mark 10:14.

That is a fact no matter how you look at it.
Salvation is of the Lord..
If God elected all....all will be saved.
If He did not elect any ....none would be saved.
All sinned and died in Adam.
All who are saved are saved by mercy and grace.

 

[tyndale1946]

That is a fact no matter how you look at it.
Salvation is of the Lord..
If God elected all....all will be saved.
If He did not elect any ....none would be saved.
All sinned and died in Adam.
All who are saved are saved by mercy and grace.

Can't argue with that!... But I might add that none deserved!... Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

Can't argue with that!... But I might add that none deserved!... Brother Glen

GOD KNOWS WHO HE IS SAVING AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE.
HE CAN BE FULLY TRUSTED GEN18:25

 

[Reformed1689]

That is a fact no matter how you look at it.
Salvation is of the Lord..
If God elected all....all will be saved.
If He did not elect any ....none would be saved.
All sinned and died in Adam.
All who are saved are saved by mercy and grace.

And I don't dispute that. But there is also nothing to suggest that infants that die are somehow elect. That's reading into Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

And I don't dispute that. But there is also nothing to suggest that infants that die are somehow elect. That's reading into Scripture.

Hello r1689,
No need to read into it at all....
The statement is carefully worded....it does not say...infants who die.

It says....ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY.

I saw your comment earlier.

If elect infants exist.....the number of them and their location of them are known to God.They would be in scripture in Hebrews2:13-16.

Do you know of any person who becomes saved that was not given by the Father to the Son?

 

[1689Dave]

That does not change what God excludes.
Deuteronomy 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

You are confusing civil law with God's manner of dealing with the wicked. It is a huge mistake on your part.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the atonement has that covered for the little babies.

It's no realistic if God visits the iniquity of the fathers unto the children of the 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate him.

“The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” Numbers 14:18 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

The sole reason the lost will perish is their name will not be in the book of life, Revelation 20:15.

Why the prerequisite to being a child, Mark 10:15? John 3:4.

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Revelation 17:8 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

No, I don't agree with your understanding of it. There are MANY Calvinists that believe it is simultaneous.

They are most likely Amyraldian 4 point "Calvinists" which is nothing more than Arminianism with a better smokescreen.

 

[1689Dave]

But if you are righteous God won't punish you for your father's sin
Ezk 18:17
Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

But I think we are missing the point that, whether baby in the womb or 90 year old sinner, being a descendant the first Adam doesn't get you into Heaven so you need to be adopted into the second Adam. To me the question is can God give a person grace, faith and the Holy Spirit and adopt a baby after they die? Some people say that original sin makes us unacceptable which I agree with but why does death stop God from witnessing to a baby?

1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

If God preached to these souls for judgment why couldn't He preach to a martyred child for salvation ?

You are confusing civil law with God's judgment of the wicked.

 

[37818]

That is a fact no matter how you look at it.
Salvation is of the Lord..

Absolutely solely of the Lord.

If God elected all....all will be saved.

Since all are not going to be saved, then all are not elected.

If He did not elect any ....none would be saved.

That is also not the case, Ephesians 1:4.

All sinned and died in Adam.

Not being guilty for Adam's sin. But having a sinful nature because of Adam's sin, Romans 5:12, Ezekiel 18:20.

All who are saved are saved by mercy and grace.

Absolutely. Ephesians 2:8, ". . . that not of yourselves . . . ."

 

[37818]

You are confusing civil law with God's manner of dealing with the wicked. It is a huge mistake on your part.

Deuteronomy 24:16 is given as civil law to Israel.
But Ezekiel 18:20 goes with Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:32. Has to do with how God is about sin.

 

[1689Dave]

Deuteronomy 24:16 is given as civil law to Israel.
But Ezekiel 18:20 goes with Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:32. Has to do with how God is about sin.

You do not understand the difference between God's cursing entire families and Israeli Civil Law. This is dangerous as it is two different situations and misrepresents God if you do not keep them separate.

 

[37818]

It's no realistic if God visits the iniquity of the fathers unto the children of the 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate him.

“The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” Numbers 14:18 (KJV 1900)

The decendants will be permitted to take up the same type of sins of their father's because of their father's hatred of God.

 

[37818]

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Revelation 17:8 (KJV 1900)

What it says and what it is interperted to mean are two distinct issues. Names blotted out from the foundation of the world are not written from the foundation of the world. Neither are names never written, if that be the case. Now if the names were never written, then that would mean even a general redempion is a limited atonement. Names either blotted out or never written. Psalms 69:27-28, Revelation 3:5.

Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[1689Dave]

The decendants will be permitted to take up the same type of sins of their father's because of their father's hatred of God.

It does not say this. It says he curses entire generations for the sins of the father.

 

[37818]

It does not say this. It says he curses entire generations for the sins of the father.

So what? It cannot mean contrary to what God says, Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

 

[1689Dave]

So what? It cannot mean contrary to what God says, Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

You are quoting civil law. Not the Ten Commandments and the threat God makes to the fathers who hate him. You grossly misrepresent God.

 

[1689Dave]

What it says and what it is interperted to mean are two distinct issues. Names blotted out from the foundation of the world are not written from the foundation of the world. Neither are names never written, if that be the case. Now if the names were never written, then that would mean even a general redempion is a limited atonement. Names either blotted out or never written. Psalms 69:27-28, Revelation 3:5.

Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Names were never written.............

 

[1689Dave]

The decendants will be permitted to take up the same type of sins of their father's because of their father's hatred of God.

God hardens hearts so people will sin.