What is the Church

[Paul from Antioch]

I still remember this sort-of humorous come-back about a "Down Town FIRST Baptist Church of ...." (Name NOT included to protect the guilty!!) Seems that this church prided herself on the number of cornerstones she had that quoted some of Jesus's sayings as recorded in our four Gospels. There was this one "smart (!!) aleic" who questioned this church's Director of the Board of Deacons, about this church's very prominently-displayed cornerstone. "MY House Shall Be Called a House of Prayer!!" All this questioner asked this Brother Chairman, "How come you haven't finished that there verse on your 'First Baptist Church of ....'?" a/k/a ".... But YE have made it a DEN OF THIVES!!!" ......H'mmm!!

 

[tyndale1946]

I still remember this sort-of humorous come-back about a "Down Town FIRST Baptist Church of ...." (Name NOT included to protect the guilty!!) Seems that this church prided herself on the number of cornerstones she had that quoted some of Jesus's sayings as recorded in our four Gospels. There was this one "smart (!!) aleic" who questioned this church's Director of the Board of Deacons, about this church's very prominently-displayed cornerstone. "MY House Shall Be Called a House of Prayer!!" All this questioner asked this Brother Chairman, "How come you haven't finished that there verse on your 'First Baptist Church of ....'?" a/k/a ".... But YE have made it a DEN OF THIVES!!!" ......H'mmm!!

Shame on the churches treasurer but I guess he would have known... Brother Glen

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Shame on the churches treasurer but I guess he would have known... Brother Glen

Maybe that old Church Treasurer might just have had some, shall we say, "Not entirely legally justified withdrawals from the till!" Nope, then they accuse me of being legalist! Can't have something like that thrown at me, you know!! Why....I'll just knock any wacko's "You Know What" off with this here bit coin!! That oughtta teach them Bible-thumpin' dudes a think or two!! Now, where is that bit coin? Just had it a second ago!! After all, I'M ENTITLED TO IT!! Gutta pay off them "Witness Protection" fellas SOMETHING, don't cha know!! .... H'mmm!!

 

[1689Dave]

This is from a closed thread - but interesting subject:

1) Is the church a building or is the church a body of believers??

2) If the church is a body of believers, then the building can be used for a variety of things, to include things with leading the lost to Christ.

3) If the building is the church, do the lost really belong there?

1 Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Ro 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Col 4:15
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Believers are the Church, not the building.

 

[Salty]

Believers are the Church, not the building.

A building can be a church - but it is not "The Church"

 

[1689Dave]

A building can be a church - but it is not "The Church"

Where in scripture do you see this?

 

[Logos1560]

The English word church comes from the Old English cirice or circe, which may came from the Latin curia or the Greek adjective kuriakos. This Greek adjective which comes from the Greek noun kurios (lord, ruler, or master) and which means "of or belonging to the lord" or "imperial" is only used twice in the Greek New Testament. It was used at 1 Corinthians 11:20 (Lord's Supper) and at Revelation 1:10 (Lord's Day).

The English word church was derived from the secular Greek usage of this Greek adjective in referring to the imperial palace (the lord's house). The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology noted that the English word church developed from the Old English cirice that meant a "public place of worship" (p. 171). In his 1828 dictionary, Noah Webster gave the following as the first definition for the word church: "A house consecrated to the worship of God, among Christians; the Lord's house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word." The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church also pointed out that the English word church applied originally to a church building (p. 344). The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Reformation noted that the term congregation "described a gathering or assembly" while the term church "suggested a structure or organization" (IV, p. 190).

William Tyndale used the English word “church” for buildings or temples as seen in Acts 14:13 [“the church porch”] and Acts 19:37 [“robbers of churches”]. Likewise, Miles Coverdale used the English word “church” or “churches” for buildings intended for worship. For example, the 1535 Coverdale’s Bible has “churches” at Hosea 8:14 where the KJV has “temples.” It also has “churches” (Lev. 26:31, Amos 7:9) where the KJV has “sanctuaries.”

In a sermon in the official Church of England Homilies, it is stated: “We have in the first part of this Homily declared by God’s Word, that the temple or church is the house of the Lord” (Griffiths, Certain Sermons, pp. 170-171). It also stated: “The material church or temple is a place appointed for the people of God to resort together unto” (p. 164).

 

[Alan Gross]

This is from a closed thread - but interesting subject:

1) Is the church a building or is the church a body of believers??

2) If the church is a body of believers, then the building can be used for a variety of things, to include things with leading the lost to Christ.

3) If the building is the church, do the lost really belong there?

8. THE CHURCHES of THE GODHEAD BODILY - ! Aware of the Godhead Master Index of Portfolio

 

[1689Dave]

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” Matthew 18:17 (KJV 1900)

“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;” Revelation 1:4 (KJV 1900)

 

[Salty]

Where in scripture do you see this?

Where in Scripture does it say there should be a bathroom in a building the Church meets at.
How about A/C or Heat - how about Chairs or pews.

The question is Where does Scripture prohibit calling the building a church!
HInt - IT DOESN'T

 

[1689Dave]

Where in Scripture does it say there should be a bathroom in a building the Church meets at.
How about A/C or Heat - how about Chairs or pews.

The question is Where does Scripture prohibit calling the building a church!
HInt - IT DOESN'T

If the church is a building, Paul would be telling them to talk to an inanimate idol when he says "tell it to the church".

 

[Salty]

8. THE CHURCHES of THE GODHEAD BODILY - ! Aware of the Godhead Master Index of Portfolio

Your links talk about the Early churches - being baptist.
If that were true - then we should have taken the name "Churches of Christ" !

 

[Salty]

If the church is a building, Paul would be telling them to talk to an inanimate idol when he says "tell it to the church".

So are you saying that you have not pews, heat, AC, ect

 

[1689Dave]

So are you saying that you have not pews, heat, AC, ect

The Church met mainly in houses in scripture. The house was not the church. How much sense does it make to call a building the Church here?

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

 

[Logos1560]

Your links talk about the Early churches - being baptist.
If that were true - then we should have taken the name "Churches of Christ" !

Before the beginning of Campbell's Church of Christ sect in the 1800's, I have heard that some Baptist churches may have had the name "Baptist Church of Christ" after the name of the particular chosen name for that local meeting house.

 

[Logos1560]

How much sense does it make to call a building the Church here?

Perhaps the problem is the difference in meaning between the English word church and the Greek word ecclesia. The English word church is said to refer originally to a building where people met to worship while the NT usage of ecclesia did not refer to a building. The range of meanings for the English word church does include a building where people meet to worship.

The actual meanings of the word church in his day are one reason why William Tyndale chose to translate ecclesia with the rendering "congregation" while he used the rendering "church" for a building two times.

William Tyndale wrote: “The word church hath divers significations. First it signifieth a place or house” (Answer, p. 11). He added: “In another signification, it is abused and mistaken for a multitude of shaven, shorn, and oiled; which we now call the spiritualty and clergy” (p. 12). G. E. Duffield commented that "Tyndale knew that in current parlance the word church usually meant the clergy or the ecclesiastical hierarchy" and that "in the Bible ecclesia referred to God's people, not merely to the clergy" (Work of William Tyndale, p. xx).

The KJV may have used the rendering "churches" referring to buildings or temples at Acts 19:37 where the Greek word ecclesia was not used.

 

[1689Dave]

Perhaps the problem is the difference in meaning between the English word church and the Greek word ecclesia. The English word church is said to refer originally to a building where people met to worship while the NT usage of ecclesia did not refer to a building. The range of meanings for the English word church does include a building where people meet to worship.

The actual meanings of the word church in his day are one reason why William Tyndale chose to translate ecclesia with the rendering "congregation" while he used the rendering "church" for a building two times.

William Tyndale wrote: “The word church hath divers significations. First it signifieth a place or house” (Answer, p. 11). He added: “In another signification, it is abused and mistaken for a multitude of shaven, shorn, and oiled; which we now call the spiritualty and clergy” (p. 12). G. E. Duffield commented that "Tyndale knew that in current parlance the word church usually meant the clergy or the ecclesiastical hierarchy" and that "in the Bible ecclesia referred to God's people, not merely to the clergy" (Work of William Tyndale, p. xx).

The KJV may have used the rendering "churches" referring to buildings or temples at Acts 19:37 where the Greek word ecclesia was not used.

If you stick to the bible examples, and the original languages, the problem evaporates.

 

[Salty]

I wonder if a church would ever split over this?????

 

[Logos1560]

If you stick to the bible examples, and the original languages, the problem evaporates.

Some will not accept the greater authority of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

They may attempt to make the English renderings an authority in and of themselves, and in effect superior to the Greek.

 

[1689Dave]

I wonder if a church would ever split over this?????

I believe it has. The visible Institutional Churches do not agree with the invisible body of Christ idea.