No, I am talking about a local Church! (the one that votes - not the one that needs heat and AC)
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What is the Church
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
No, I am talking about a local Church! (the one that votes - not the one that needs heat and AC)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If 2 or 3 meet at Micky D's for prayer and fellowship in Jesus' name, they hold a church (meeting) but Micky D's is still Micky D's.
What a revelation that is!!!!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
CERTAINLY.
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
One needs to know the original meaning of Ekkesia. This Greek word was in use at least some two or three centuries BC. It was the name given to the Greek City-States' governing body. The HS merely added to that word's already understood meaning & applied it to the organization(s) which were built on The Rock---Jesus Christ. Moreover, the OT Jews had no separate individual meeting places, so they met in & around each city's synagogue (or the Temple in Jerusalem's case). And, we also must keep in mind that the ruling Jews refused to accept Jesus's mission here on earth....They tried to kill Him for saying about "This Temple." As a general rule, these newly born-again folks became targets of the Jews, shall we say, "Ethnic Cleansing" program, viz, Stephen in Acts, When Paul was still known as Saul, his original MO wasn't an evangelism series of meetings in Damascus. NO, he intended to persecute these trouble-makers. Consequently, most of these newly born again believers had all their properties confiscated and thus forcing them to help each other, NOT because they loved this so-called method of communism, but rather that was the only option for them. A cursorary reading of the remainder of the NT does not endorse this way of living; in fact, of all places one can imagine, the primarily Gentile church at Corinth seemed to take the lead in financially helping the poor saints in Jerusalem. IMHO, we do an injustice to apply certain situations that occurred some 20 centuries later.
There is no need to specifically prohibit it, because a biblical church is a congregation, people, not a physical being. By demonstrating what a church is, the Bible prohibits us from calling something else a church.
Where does Scripture prohibit calling sprinkling baptism? There is no need to specifically prohibit it, because biblical baptism is immersion, not sprinkling or pouring. By demonstrating what baptism is, the Bible prohibits us from calling something else baptism.
It has certainly not been unusual for churches of the Baptist faith to simply call themselves "churches of Christ." For example, the London Baptist Confession of 1644 and 1646 had:
So did the 1656 Somerset Confession:
The Orthodox Creed of 1679:
The 1651 Faith and Practice of Thirty Congregations, Gathered According to the Primitive Pattern used "churches of God" and "church of God."
Minute books of Baptist congregations yield very much of the same:
I believe our people basically (and incorrectly), perhaps among other reasons, gave up the name to distinguish themselves from the churches following Alexander Campbell, who used the name and argued that it was the only scriptural name. My grandfather's uncle, during his tenure as church clerk of the church where I grew up (but some 60 years before I was born) consistently started his minutes with "The Baptist Church of Christ meeting at Smyrna..."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
1) It's the body of believers under one roof.
2) I've never really considered that approach before...
But now that you mention it, many groups ( especially today ) do use their buildings for far more than just professing believers meeting together to exercise their spiritual gifts, edify one another, be instructed in righteousness, serve one another in love, etc.
They have "bingo nights", "singles groups", "AWANA" / "King's Kids", "movie nights", "12 Step" programs, and many other activities.
But looking through the New Testament, I can see no warrant for doing it any other way than Paul and the rest of the apostles and believers did...
Which was to preach in public places and then bring those who did believe together for further instruction, etc., separated from the world and its ways.
3) Even if it is not the building, I don't see how unbelievers who do not love the Lord belong there ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ).
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Its a place of worship not that's entertainment... Singing, praying, preaching!... It the Lord's church!... Brother Glen
It seems sometimes I can neither type nor edit correctly! The sentence above should be: "There is no need to specifically prohibit it, because a biblical church is a congregation, people, not a physical building."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Nowhere...
But where do we get the idea that God's churches should take up a collection for building a meeting house, a collection for maintenance of the building, pay a salary to those who have the gifts of preaching, teaching, etc. for using those gifts to build up their brothers and sisters in the faith, and operate as ( or even resemble ) a business?
*Looks downtown to the Roman Catholic Church ( and many others ) roughly a mile away*
It's not the Bible, Salty.
Believers don't need all that stuff to distract them or to even keep track of,
given that we are to eat our bread quietly, work with our hands to give to those in need, do good to all men ( especially those who are of the household of faith ), preach and teach the Scriptures and wait for His coming again.
The church is what Jesus Christ gave Himself for ( Ephesians 5:25 )...
Perhaps our priorities are in the wrong place.
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Yes I believe they do, to hear the witness of being saved by Christ. To hear the gospel and learn about Salvation.
MB
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
Yes!... It was a heavenly gathering!... Brother Glen
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Btw... You new people are a little picky aren't you!
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
I am NOT a new BB! Some years ago I posted on BB with the ID of ktn4eg. In the interim two things occurred: (1) I moved to Antioch (TN); & (2) I had a multitude of serious medical issues since my AT&T retirement in Aug 2018. Since I'm 75 YO, Single, never married "Eunuch for the Kingdom's Sake,"(Mt 19), until quite recently I had to undergo some operations + move to first a 24/7 critical medical facility, then to an assisted living facility for several months, and then back to a newer residence that is somewhat closer to hospitals, etc. As a result, I now have recovered to the extent that my POA & my Primary Care Physician both indicated that returning to posting on BB would probably be OK since I'm still a shut-in & don't as a rule mingle with other people on a fairly regular basis, to return to posting on BB. So, dear brother, I am NOT a brand new comer to BB. I've keep these personal matters off of BB, etc., because I've already been victimized by internet phishers who've hacked into what few internet sites I had in years gone by. These "less-than-honorable" folks have already tried to empty out what little finances I have & wish to empty ALL remaining ones. That's just a way of life nowadays I guess. BOTTOM LINE: I realize that you probably weren't aware of these situations & please forgive me for not wanting to publicize them for all to see. As I said, apparently this is simply a fact of life in this depraved world we now must reside. I missed posting on BB because for the most part I've met some truly wonderful brothers & sisters, of which I consider you do be. Having thus posted this, I welcome the diversity of viewpoints that BB has provided this non-seminarian non pastoral individual. One is never too old to learn different approaches to various issues & that's why I enjoy the fellowship I've always found on BB. Sure, we can possibly have some divergent viewpoints on non-salvational issues. That's one of the reasons why Our Father Who Art in Heaven gave us His Word. We are like sheep with The Great Shepherd over us. Even Jesus Himself tolerated some issues when it involved things not pertaining to one's eternal salvation. BB seems to be continuing that MO, & I'm glad for it. Even the infant NT assembly had some divergent viewpoints on secondary issues/matters, but so long as their analysis is kept in a brotherly love state of mind, I don't see why "Can't We all just get along" cannot be applied here on BB. Maybe that's at least one of the reasons why He has the Millenium....It probably will take that long to "straighten us out" on some things!!Yes!... It was a heavenly gathering!... Brother Glen
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Btw... You new people are a little picky aren't you!
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
This particular question I want to post doesn't necessarily pertain to the actual definition of a church or its implications thereof, and maybe this thread might better be asked in a completely different thread. If that's the case, I'll leave up to the BB Administrators to decide & have them create a different thread since I don't recall how to start a thread here on BB. ANYWAY, here's my question: "Enabling a cult." A church that has her only campus in a certain location has experienced a rather large growth in her attendance. That church buys a much larger building across town and subsequently begins meeting in this newly acquired campus. The question arises about what to do with her old campus way across town. A cult wishes to purchase this older campus that's far away from the church's new, more expansive one. Seeing that this cult's offering for the old campus would significantly reduce that church's financial obligation to the holder of the mortgage, etc., the church in question sells her former campus to this cult. Other nearby churches now accuse this church of "enabling" the cult since that cult now has a building in which to meet and propogate its heresy(-ies). Which side is right & which side is wrong in this controversy? Your supplying of pertainent scripture(s) would be appreciated.
An ekklesia is a congregation or assembly of Christians. Seekers may be welcome to attend, but they are not part of the ekklesia, which is why church membership is most important. This begs the very important question of 'what is a Christian?' Is it someone who has been baptized? Is it someone who has made at some point a profession of faith? Here is some of what the N.T. says a Christian is:
A Christian is someone who has been taught by God. He has learned of the Father and therefore fled to Christ for salvation (John 6:45; 1 Thessalonians 2:13). Although he has been taught in this way, he still needs to grow in the faith by hearing, ‘the pure milk of the word’ (1 Peter 2:2) and indeed, by graduating to the ‘meat’ (Hebrews 5:12-14).
A Christian is someone who has received New Birth from God (John 3:3, 5; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3-5)
A Christian is someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; 1John 2:20).
A Christian is someone who knows the Lord, has His laws written upon his heart and has his sins forgiven (Hebrews 8:10-11).
A Christian is someone who knows God as his Father (Romans 8:15). He needs no man to tell him how to know God (Matthew 16:17; Hebrews 8:11; 1 John 2:27).
A Christian is no longer a citizen of this world but of heaven (Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 11:16).
A Christian is someone whom God has called out of darkness into light (Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:13; 1Thes 5:5; 1Peter 2:9).
A Christian is someone who has been baptized (Acts of the Apostles 2:41; Romans 6:4). Not because water baptism makes one a Christian, but because being baptized is our Lord’s command for those whom He saves (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38).
A Christian is someone who is kept by the power of God (John 10:27-30; 17:11; Romans 8:38; 1Peter 1:5).
A Christian is someone who attends a church because he heeds to hear God's word preached and expounded, and also because he needs Christian fellowship and because God's word commands it (Acts of the Apostles 2:42, 46; Hebrews 10:25).
It behoves each one of us to ask himself, if that is what a Christian is, am I one? The Lord Jesus Himself warns us that on the Last Day many folk will discover that they have been deceiving themselves (Matthew 7:22-3). Also, does this description fit the members of my church. If not, is it a church?
A Christian is someone who has been taught by God. He has learned of the Father and therefore fled to Christ for salvation (John 6:45; 1 Thessalonians 2:13). Although he has been taught in this way, he still needs to grow in the faith by hearing, ‘the pure milk of the word’ (1 Peter 2:2) and indeed, by graduating to the ‘meat’ (Hebrews 5:12-14).
A Christian is someone who has received New Birth from God (John 3:3, 5; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3-5)
A Christian is someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; 1John 2:20).
A Christian is someone who knows the Lord, has His laws written upon his heart and has his sins forgiven (Hebrews 8:10-11).
A Christian is someone who knows God as his Father (Romans 8:15). He needs no man to tell him how to know God (Matthew 16:17; Hebrews 8:11; 1 John 2:27).
A Christian is no longer a citizen of this world but of heaven (Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 11:16).
A Christian is someone whom God has called out of darkness into light (Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:13; 1Thes 5:5; 1Peter 2:9).
A Christian is someone who has been baptized (Acts of the Apostles 2:41; Romans 6:4). Not because water baptism makes one a Christian, but because being baptized is our Lord’s command for those whom He saves (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38).
A Christian is someone who is kept by the power of God (John 10:27-30; 17:11; Romans 8:38; 1Peter 1:5).
A Christian is someone who attends a church because he heeds to hear God's word preached and expounded, and also because he needs Christian fellowship and because God's word commands it (Acts of the Apostles 2:42, 46; Hebrews 10:25).
It behoves each one of us to ask himself, if that is what a Christian is, am I one? The Lord Jesus Himself warns us that on the Last Day many folk will discover that they have been deceiving themselves (Matthew 7:22-3). Also, does this description fit the members of my church. If not, is it a church?
I should have added that a Christian is someone who is eagerly awaiting the glorious Return of Christ at the end of time (1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28; 2 Peter 3:12-13).