Featured Russ Moore

Historically, Baptists have affirmed the following beliefs:

Biblical Authority
Autonomy of the Local Church
Priesthood of the Believer
Two Ordinances
Individual Soul Liberty
Saved, Baptized Church Membership
Two Offices
Separation of Church and State
​

A pretty good description of these distinctions can be found here (and many other places with a simple internet search).

 

No prophets or Apostles today as they were in the Bible!

 

Repeatedly shouting it doesn't make it true.

Apostle = (from the Greek, ἀπόστολος, meaning "one who is sent"). Do you really mean to claim that God doesn't send anyone on mission? That's exactly what missionaries do? Do you claim missionaries have no authority to do their work?

Prophet = (from the Greek, προφήτης, meaning forth-teller"). Do you really mean to claim that God doesn't empower anyone to speak in the name and power of the Holy Spirit? That's what preachers are supposed to do. Do you claim preachers have no authority to do their work?

 

I am saying that there are today none in the office of the Apostle or prophet as described in the Bible!

 

I am literally using the biblical words and meanings, as demonstrated and described in the Bible.

 

Apostles of Christ were NOT pastors and teacher sin the sense of the term today, as they were unique to time of Christ, and had sign gifts and revelations from the Lord!

 

The sign gifts are active today and are manifested as needed. Regarding "revelations," God still speaks to His people. I know there is a thread of Christendom who is fiercely opposed to that idea, but that does not change the reality of it.

 

True. That appears (to me) to be the biblical position. I have never seen a compelling argument that the sign gifts have ended. I have also witnessed the some of the sign gifts in action.

I have not surveyed all of the Baptist world, but that is probably correct. There was such a reaction against the excesses and errors of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movements that the possibility of the sign gifts is not even considered in much of Baptist life.

So do I. After 2000 years of no new written revelation accepted by the majority of the churches, it is highly unlikely that we will see any additions to scripture. But God still speaks to, and acts through, His people.

 

The sign gifts were given to the Apostles of the Lord Jesus for a specific time and reason, and do you hold that we still have ongoing revelations from God apart from the Bible then?

 

And our canon of revelation has been closed since John died!

 

Would think that as a Baptist, its not "highly unlikely" any more added to canon, its impossible!
And how is God still speaking and acting thru his people today?

 

Where is the scripture that indicates the sign gifts are for a specific time? As to reasons, are there still people who need to see signs? Yes, there are.

What is the scripture that specifically states this? (Don’t quote from Revelation 22 since the Gospel of John was likely written after Revelation.)

What is the scripture that says it is impossible? Don’t quote me 1 Corinthians 13:10, because that’s referring to the fullness of the Kingdom, not the present incomplete age.

If your pastor/preacher and members do not regularly experience the guidance of God, your church is in bad shape. In my own experience, God gives general guidance (a general sense of knowing what to do), specific guidance (sudden knowledge of what to do in a particular moment), biblical guidance (unfolding and opening of the meaning of scripture as I study and meditate on it), and occasional extremely specific knowledge of someone else’s circumstances so I can go there and intervene (usually someone in crisis or in need of evangelism).

Regarding sign gifts, they manifest in any believer, as needed, who is open to being used of God and has the ability to handle the implications of that gift being manifested by the nature of their personality or maturity of character. These gifts cannot exercised according to the will of the person of whom God uses, and the manifestation of the gift can be rejected. One or all of these gifts may be manifested in one person, but the gifts that manifest usually fall into the areas that individual disciples can handle, so, often, the same few gifts are frequently manifested, while others rarely, if ever. Paul teaches:

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.​

He lists examples such as:
(1) “message of wisdom” - knowledge of what God wants to do in certain human situations. Often this manifests while a group of people are in prayerful discussion of problem and suddenly one or more people, seemingly out of nowhere, bring forward a solution that is perfectly suited to the situation.
(2) “message of knowledge” - specific knowledge of something that a believer would not have any way of knowing, in order to meet the need of someone else.
(3) “faith” - this is a specific, extraordinary, measure of faith to trust God in a trying circumstance.
(4) “gifts of healing” - an ability to know when God intends to divinely heal someone and, if there in person, to be used of God to heal in that moment.
(5) “miraculous powers” - a catch-all term for divine action that cannot be explained by natural forces. Some people put things like exorcism in this category, but I don’t thing Paul necessarily considers the act of exorcism a spiritual gift.
(6) “prophecy” - having a specific word of God for that moment and specific situation — it is usually informed by a message of knowledge or wisdom.
(7) “distinguishing between spirits” - this is what is often called spiritual discernment, knowing the difference between a true and false teacher, or the work of God and the work of the evil one.
(8) “speaking in different kinds of tongues” - the momentary ability to speak in a language unknown to the speaker, whether if be a human language or an “unknown” language.
(9) “interpretation of tongues” - a momentary ability to understand a language unknown to the speaker, whether it be a human language or an “unknown” language.

The gifts most often manifested through me have been, in order of frequency:

• Distinguishing between spirits (common)
• Message of knowledge (every few months, usually related to evangelism or ministry to persons in crisis)
• Prophecy (a few times a year)
• Message of wisdom (perhaps once or twice a year)
• Gifts of healing (on average, about once a year)
• Miraculous powers, if exorcism in included (rare — last time was in 1991)

I have witnessed what appears to be a genuine manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues only once (July 4, 1987 - Stewart Beach, Galveston, Texas), although I have been around people speaking in “tongues” far more often than I’d like.

I have not knowingly witnessed “faith” as a manifestation (aka “sign gift”), but that’s probably because I am far too sheltered here in the US. I imagine those facing martyrdom have this manifested in their lives.

Does that help?

 

The apostles had to have seen Christ and been eye witnesses of what they testified (John 15:27, Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 9:1, 1 John 1:1, Gal. 1:11-12, Acts 10:39-43, 2 Peter 1:16-19). God bore witness to the inspiration of the words revealed to and recorded by the apostles and prophets by signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb. 2:3-4, 2 Cor. 12:12). The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The apostles like Paul received the gospel “by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).

No more revelation and inspired Scripture have been given since the giving of the book of Revelation to the Apostle John (Rev. 22:18). The giving and writing of the Scriptures were finished with the completion of the New Testament (Rev. 22:18, Rom. 15:4, John 20:31). After the New Testament was completed, no further need for the gift of apostles and prophets existed (Rev. 22:18, 1 Cor. 13:10, Eph. 2:20, Eph. 3:5).

 

The sign gifts function thru an Apostle, and there are none today who have that Office, as described in NT, and the revelatory gifts not given as all revelation God has to give to us in the scriptures!

 

I have responded here, so as not to take this thread off topic any more than it already is.

 

I have responded here, so as not to take this thread any more off topic than it already is.