Russ Moore

[Baptist Believer]

Please learn how to properly format posts!

That's true. Do you want to deal with the Bible in our discussion? I'm happy to do that with you if you have concerns. You can make up your own mind as to whether I understand the Bible or not. As a starting point, please explain Matthew 25:31-46 and explain how this teaching of Jesus can be interpreted in any other way than disciples of Jesus being advocates for the poor, the outsiders, the sick, or imprisoned? Show me your biblical acumen.

As a starting point, please explain Matthew 25:31-46

Ha! You are unwilling to go first... Okay:

Jesus is giving us a stylized image of the Final Judgment, where the sheep are separated from the goats (similar to Matthew 13 --> the wheat from the tares, good fish from the bad fish) and the King pronounces the blessings upon His sheep because they have fed the hungry; given drink to the thirsty; invited in strangers (in OT terms, foreigners and travelers); clothed the needy; served the sick; and provided comfort, support, and companionship to those in prison. Those who were His sheep were confused, since they did not explicitly recognize Jesus in the poor, the refugee, the sick, or the prisoner. He explained that service (including advocacy) to those persons is direct service to Jesus.

To the goats, the King pronounces their curse, pointing out that they did not feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, invite in the stranger/refugee, clothe the needy, serve the sick, or cared about the plight of the prisoner. They did not serve Jesus (in other words, not disciples of His). They protest that they didn't know that Jesus identified with those people (perhaps they thought "social justice" was a Marxist concept?), but the King sent them to their destruction.

The difference between the two groups was how they behaved. Those who were disciples of Jesus understood His commands to love their neighbor (and even their enemies) and set out to minister to those who had needs as they went through life, not doing it because they were "earning" anything, but because they were willing disciples of the teachings of Jesus. Those who were condemned just had an excuse -- we didn't see You.

Does that make sense?

That's also true. We are known by our fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). Does that sound like Donald Trump or any of his disciples?
Does that sound like Joe Biden or any of his disciples?

I don't think Joe Biden has disciples since he is not at the head of a personality cult.

I don't know Biden personally, but from what I have seen in public, he models love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. He runs short of patience, but I hope he is getting better. I don't know about his private inner life (no one does), but he seems to feed upon faith in God because of the tragedies he has faced in his life. He is not nearly as arrogant as he was back in the 1980s.

Does it sound like many in this forum? Does that include you?

That does include me. I am often quite direct, but rarely malicious.

I'm not a disciple of Biden or liberals (and I'm not a liberal), so that statement doesn't connect.
Good than you didn't vote for Biden. Again, maybe I was wrong about you.

You are indeed wrong, but I did give my vote to Biden for the reasons I have stated.

 

[Mikoo]

You really made a mess of the formatting on your last response. I'll try to clean it up.


Actually, they don't. However, I suspect you are using a definition of "liberal" that is entirely arbitrary and essentially means someone who doesn't believe just like you do.

You keep saying "Your words betray you" as if that is somehow profound or like anyone knows what you are talking about.


No it's not.

If reality happens to be a certain way and several persons of widely diverse opinions and backgrounds all describe that reality in the same way, then it is probably true. The issue is not the "talking points" but the common reality that everyone is seeing and describing.


So you are living in an alternate reality with alternative facts? That's not something I would want to admit.

That would be a mistake, since I am pointing to Jesus. As far as I know, most newspapers (of any sort) don't point to Jesus.


The biblical Jesus, the One Who is the image of the invisible God who has demanded justice from the very beginning. Haven't you read the Old Testament prophets? Their voices are echoed by Jesus and the New Testament writers. Are you familiar with the Bible, beyond what is covered in Sunday School?

And that's also a mistake, since I am pointing to Jesus. As far as I know, most television news channels (of any sort) don't point to Jesus.


See my previous answer. By the way, did you ever notice in the Gospels (if you have read them) that the poor, outcast, and non-religious people constantly pressed in to see Jesus? He attracted them because of His character and compassion. Many people in the religious establishment constantly criticized Jesus, especially because of the riff-raff and 'undesirables' that He attracted and associated with. Non-believers were happy to live with Jesus, but they usually ended up become believers eventually. However, that still did not get them acceptance within the religious establishment.


I gave my vote to Biden because Trump was/is much, much worse. There's no way I could vote for Trump because I am a disciple of Jesus. Biden was the only one who could beat him, so I gave Biden my vote.

You forgot to ask my what I like about Biden. These are the main reasons why he was the superior candidate to Trump:

(1) He believes in and practices the principle of the rule of law. Typical liberal falsehood
(2) He understands and would likely uphold the Constitution. What a joke? You already lost this one.
(3) He has a reasonable grasp of reality and common knowledge -- something Trump lacks. LOL. That's why they hid him for the entire election. That's what liberals believe.
(4) He could lead our nation out of the pandemic. You mean finish what Trump started and then take credit? LOL
(5) He is unlikely to try to become a dictator, while Trump was openly making moves that way. Too late!
(6) He is of better personal character than Trump (and character matters). Only in a liberals mind! They are both sinners.

You bought the liberal lies hook, line and sinker!

If I'm reading you correctly, you have assumed I am a "liberal," a person who doesn't understand the Bible, and possibly not a Christian since I do not give proper reverence and fealty to Trump. Is that correct?

You are! I knew it! You voted for Biden and then gave yourself excuses for it. You give proper reverence and fealty to Biden. How typical liberal and hypocritical that is. Implied also a disciple of Jesus could no way vote for Trump.
You accuse others of exactly what you liberals are guilty of.
BINGO!!!!!
Everything I thought about you is true. You are a 'liberal'. Politics before Faith.
Again. Your words betray you. And yes, others know what I mean.
Oh, and the better than and smarter than anyone and arrogance of the liberal is glaringly visible in your responses.

 

[Mikoo]

Please learn how to properly format posts!



Ha! You are unwilling to go first... Okay:

Jesus is giving us a stylized image of the Final Judgment, where the sheep are separated from the goats (similar to Matthew 13 --> the wheat from the tares, good fish from the bad fish) and the King pronounces the blessings upon His sheep because they have fed the hungry; given drink to the thirsty; invited in strangers (in OT terms, foreigners and travelers); clothed the needy; served the sick; and provided comfort, support, and companionship to those in prison. Those who were His sheep were confused, since they did not explicitly recognize Jesus in the poor, the refugee, the sick, or the prisoner. He explained that service (including advocacy) to those persons is direct service to Jesus.

To the goats, the King pronounces their curse, pointing out that they did not feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, invite in the stranger/refugee, clothe the needy, serve the sick, or cared about the plight of the prisoner. They did not serve Jesus (in other words, not disciples of His). They protest that they didn't know that Jesus identified with those people (perhaps they thought "social justice" was a Marxist concept?), but the King sent them to their destruction.

The difference between the two groups was how they behaved. Those who were disciples of Jesus understood His commands to love their neighbor (and even their enemies) and set out to minister to those who had needs as they went through life, not doing it because they were "earning" anything, but because they were willing disciples of the teachings of Jesus. Those who were condemned just had an excuse -- we didn't see You.

Does that make sense?

Is Jesus talking to governments or individuals?


I don't think Joe Biden has disciples since he is not at the head of a personality cult.

I don't know Biden personally, but from what I have seen in public, he models love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. He runs short of patience, but I hope he is getting better. I don't know about his private inner life (no one does), but he seems to feed upon faith in God because of the tragedies he has faced in his life. He is not nearly as arrogant as he was back in the 1980s.


That does include me. I am often quite direct, but rarely malicious.


You are indeed wrong, but I did give my vote to Biden for the reasons I have stated.

For my answer to the rest of your responses, see post #62

 

[Baptist Believer]

You are! I knew it! You voted for Biden and then gave yourself excuses for it.

False. My discipleship to Jesus is the basis of my political actions. If you don't believe it, you chose to believe a lie.

You give proper reverence and fealty to Biden.

He is just a man, with good and bad points. I owe him nothing. When he does wrong, I will oppose him.

How typical liberal and hypocritical that is.

No, you are deceiving yourself.

Implied also a disciple of Jesus could no way vote for Trump.

Most churches in our part of Christendom do not really teach the teachings of Jesus that conflict with the politics of the congregation, not teach church members about discipleship, or how to study the Bible. So there are relatively few people who really undertake discipleship. When one is a disciple of Jesus, immersed in His teachings, it would be very hard to vote for Trump.

You accuse others of exactly what you liberals are guilty of.

Nope. You simply don't/won't understand.

Everything I thought about you is true. You are a 'liberal'. Politics before Faith.

Nope, that's a lie.

Again. Your words betray you. And yes, others know what I mean.

They do not betray me. They explain me. Your words show your self-deception.

Oh, and the better than and smarter than anyone and arrogance of the liberal is glaringly visible in your responses.

You confuse confidence and a vocabulary (I'm a writer) with arrogance. You are not the first, and probably not the last to make that accusation.

 

[Baptist Believer]

AGAIN, please learn to format posts!!

Trust me, it's not "liberal" to be competent.

Jesus is giving us a stylized image of the Final Judgment, where the sheep are separated from the goats (similar to Matthew 13 --> the wheat from the tares, good fish from the bad fish) and the King pronounces the blessings upon His sheep because they have fed the hungry; given drink to the thirsty; invited in strangers (in OT terms, foreigners and travelers); clothed the needy; served the sick; and provided comfort, support, and companionship to those in prison. Those who were His sheep were confused, since they did not explicitly recognize Jesus in the poor, the refugee, the sick, or the prisoner. He explained that service (including advocacy) to those persons is direct service to Jesus.

To the goats, the King pronounces their curse, pointing out that they did not feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, invite in the stranger/refugee, clothe the needy, serve the sick, or cared about the plight of the prisoner. They did not serve Jesus (in other words, not disciples of His). They protest that they didn't know that Jesus identified with those people (perhaps they thought "social justice" was a Marxist concept?), but the King sent them to their destruction.

The difference between the two groups was how they behaved. Those who were disciples of Jesus understood His commands to love their neighbor (and even their enemies) and set out to minister to those who had needs as they went through life, not doing it because they were "earning" anything, but because they were willing disciples of the teachings of Jesus. Those who were condemned just had an excuse -- we didn't see You.

Does that make sense?

Is Jesus talking to governments or individuals?

He is obviously talking to individuals, but that's not the "out" you think it is. If you are a disciple of Jesus, and a person who has a say in government (a person who can petition the government and vote for leadership), then you are under obligation to be an advocate for all of these categories of people, as well as others mentioned in scripture. Among other things, that means it must affect the way you consider your voting options and political action.

So now it's your turn. Please explain that passage in a way that justifies not being an advocate for Jesus (those with whom He identifies).

 

[Mikoo]

AGAIN, please learn to format posts!!

Trust me, it's not "liberal" to be competent.


He is obviously talking to individuals, but that's not the "out" you think it is. If you are a disciple of Jesus, and a person who has a say in government (a person who can petition the government and vote for leadership), then you are under obligation to be an advocate for all of these categories of people, as well as others mentioned in scripture. Among other things, that means it must affect the way you consider your voting options and political action.

So now it's your turn. Please explain that passage in a way that justifies not being an advocate for Jesus (those with whom He identifies).

Nope. You have surrendered the Body of Christ’s responsibilities to a secular government.

 

[Mikoo]

False. My discipleship to Jesus is the basis of my political actions. If you don't believe it, you chose to believe a lie.


He is just a man, with good and bad points. I owe him nothing. When he does wrong, I will oppose him.


No, you are deceiving yourself.


Most churches in our part of Christendom do not really teach the teachings of Jesus that conflict with the politics of the congregation, not teach church members about discipleship, or how to study the Bible. So there are relatively few people who really undertake discipleship. When one is a disciple of Jesus, immersed in His teachings, it would be very hard to vote for Trump.


Nope. You simply don't/won't understand.


Nope, that's a lie.


They do not betray me. They explain me. Your words show your self-deception.


You confuse confidence and a vocabulary (I'm a writer) with arrogance. You are not the first, and probably not the last to make that accusation.

Your words continue to betray you.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Nope. You have surrendered the Body of Christ’s responsibilities to a secular government.

No, clearly I haven't at all.

Even when God's people did NOT have an official say in how things in government were run, they were advocates for righteousness -- for instance Elijah and John the Baptist. Think about the early Christians who made it a creed to say "Jesus is Lord" (rather than "Caesar is Lord").

Why do you refuse to interact with the Bible? You have accused me of not understanding it, so I have asked you to explain it to me, yet you refuse. Why is that?

Are you afraid of the teachings of Jesus? Seems that way to me.

Your words continue to betray you.

At this point, all I can conclude about you is that you are an accuser of Christians.

Have you read the Bible? Do you understand it? You have not used it yet in our discussion. Is it because of cowardice, unbelief, or your own unwillingness to publicly admit you are is severe error?

 

[Baptist Believer]

And still, Yeshua1 won't answer Jerome's question.

 

[Yeshua1]

False. My discipleship to Jesus is the basis of my political actions. If you don't believe it, you chose to believe a lie.


He is just a man, with good and bad points. I owe him nothing. When he does wrong, I will oppose him.


No, you are deceiving yourself.


Most churches in our part of Christendom do not really teach the teachings of Jesus that conflict with the politics of the congregation, not teach church members about discipleship, or how to study the Bible. So there are relatively few people who really undertake discipleship. When one is a disciple of Jesus, immersed in His teachings, it would be very hard to vote for Trump.


Nope. You simply don't/won't understand.


Nope, that's a lie.


They do not betray me. They explain me. Your words show your self-deception.


You confuse confidence and a vocabulary (I'm a writer) with arrogance. You are not the first, and probably not the last to make that accusation.

So you support Biden views regarding abortion , and how he views Illegal aliens?

 

[Yeshua1]

No, clearly I haven't at all.

Even when God's people did NOT have an official say in how things in government were run, they were advocates for righteousness -- for instance Elijah and John the Baptist. Think about the early Christians who made it a creed to say "Jesus is Lord" (rather than "Caesar is Lord").

Why do you refuse to interact with the Bible? You have accused me of not understanding it, so I have asked you to explain it to me, yet you refuse. Why is that?

Are you afraid of the teachings of Jesus? Seems that way to me.


At this point, all I can conclude about you is that you are an accuser of Christians.

Have you read the Bible? Do you understand it? You have not used it yet in our discussion. Is it because of cowardice, unbelief, or your own unwillingness to publicly admit you are is severe error?

I just think that your Social Justice getting woke theology should not be the primary fcus of the Christian church!

 

[Yeshua1]

And still, Yeshua1 won't answer Jerome's question.

I cannot as of yet find a direct reference, but do know that he upholds those who teaching a contrary Gospel!

 

[Yeshua1]

Your words continue to betray you.

He wants to see the Church woke up as priority one!

 

[Yeshua1]

And still, Yeshua1 won't answer Jerome's question.

This might help
Russell Moore and the School of the Prophets of Shame
and this!.
Avoid These 13 Christian "Leaders" | Bible Thumping Wingnut Network

 

[Mikoo]

No, clearly I haven't at all.

Even when God's people did NOT have an official say in how things in government were run, they were advocates for righteousness -- for instance Elijah and John the Baptist. Think about the early Christians who made it a creed to say "Jesus is Lord" (rather than "Caesar is Lord").

Why do you refuse to interact with the Bible? You have accused me of not understanding it, so I have asked you to explain it to me, yet you refuse. Why is that?

Are you afraid of the teachings of Jesus? Seems that way to me.


At this point, all I can conclude about you is that you are an accuser of Christians.

Have you read the Bible? Do you understand it? You have not used it yet in our discussion. Is it because of cowardice, unbelief, or your own unwillingness to publicly admit you are is severe error?

I have read my Bible. You read it as a liberal, SJW 'Christian'. You go in blinded by your liberal ideology. I read it as a blessed child of God guided by the Holy Spirit. Read your words. You are the accuser of Christians.
Again, your words have betrayed you.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have read my Bible. You read it as a liberal, SJW 'Christian'. You go in blinded by your liberal ideology. I read it as a blessed child of God guided by the Holy Spirit. Read your words. You are the accuser of Christians.
Again, your words have betrayed you.

he means well. but really seems to have bought hook line and sinker the ole social justice and liberal mind set!

 

[Baptist Believer]

So you support Biden views regarding abortion....

In this very thread, I have pointed out that I disagree with Biden on abortion. You and others are desperate to paint me as pro-abortion, but you are simply attacking me as a means of changing the subject.

...and how he views Illegal aliens?

I have no idea how Biden "views illegal aliens." However, I know what God says about the stranger, the outsider, and the refugee. Do you?

I just think that your Social Justice getting woke theology should not be the primary fcus of the Christian church!

(1) My alleged "social justice" and "woke" theology has been a part of my theology for decades, since God clearly demands it in scripture. You want to blame it on contemporary movements, but it is thousands of years old and part of what God demands of us.
(2) Who has claimed that "social justice" and "getting work" theology is supposed to be the "primary [focus] of the Christian church?" I have not. One cannot biblically divide social justice away from evangelism and discipleship, or the preaching ministry and worship. It is all part of the same interdependent theology. So whatever you have heard from others or what you assume I believe is in serious error.

I cannot as of yet find a direct reference, but do know that he upholds those who teaching a contrary Gospel!

He supports a "contrary gospel?" That is a very serious charge, one that makes one accursed. (Galatians 1:8). What do you mean?

he means well. but really seems to have bought hook line and sinker the ole social justice and liberal mind set!

You don't know a thing about me and you speak foolish lies based on your vain imagination.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I have read my Bible.

I'm glad. Now open it up and explain that Matthew 25 passage in a way that refutes my viewpoint.

You read it as a liberal, SJW 'Christian'. You go in blinded by your liberal ideology.

This is known as the ad hominem logical fallacy. You attack me because you have no argument or biblical standing in order to deflect from revealing your inadequacy. And in this case, you aren't even addressing anything that is real. You are just making things up. A "Christian" who lies about another person, is corrected about the untruth of their statement, and then continues to press those lies shames Christ and needs to rethink whether or not he is truly a disciple. Disciples of Jesus are not casual and habitual liars.

I read it as a blessed child of God guided by the Holy Spirit.

I simply don't believe you. You have shown no evidence of being guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a liar, and you are essentially saying that the Holy Spirit is endorsing your false message to me. That's very close to the unforgivable sin. (I'm being quite serious here. This is not about my ego, this is about your spiritual welfare.)

Read your words.

I wrote my words. I know what I wrote.

You are the accuser of Christians.

I am confronting your lies and error. That's being a minister of the gospel. We are called to correct each other. Your words are lies. I am speaking the truth.

Again, your words have betrayed you.

You unwillingness to even quote scripture to support your position reveals you are just blowing hot air.

 

[Baptist Believer]

This might help
Russell Moore and the School of the Prophets of Shame

This is literally a repost of the same article (different site) that doesn't support any of your claims about Moore. Regarding this article, Moore's big sins are that he doesn't fully embrace extremist right-wing rhetoric or hold to the anti-Semitic George Soros is a master puppeteer of all evil forces in the world.

and this!.
Avoid These 13 Christian "Leaders" | Bible Thumping Wingnut Network

Ah yes, Moore is not loved by self-identified wingnuts... That should tell you something. Their big issue here is that they have embraced the hysteria over CRT (which is a conversation about the way ethnicity intersects with American culture) and demands that every leader join them in their hysteria or else they are somehow anti-God.

And even that doesn't address the two charges you made:
(1) Moore "does see prophets given to the Church today!" (whatever that's supposed to mean)
(2) Moore "upholds those who teaching(sic) a contrary Gospel!"

Please provide documentation for these accusations or withdraw them.

 

[Yeshua1]

In this very thread, I have pointed out that I disagree with Biden on abortion. You and others are desperate to paint me as pro-abortion, but you are simply attacking me as a means of changing the subject.


I have no idea how Biden "views illegal aliens." However, I know what God says about the stranger, the outsider, and the refugee. Do you?


(1) My alleged "social justice" and "woke" theology has been a part of my theology for decades, since God clearly demands it in scripture. You want to blame it on contemporary movements, but it is thousands of years old and part of what God demands of us.
(2) Who has claimed that "social justice" and "getting work" theology is supposed to be the "primary [focus] of the Christian church?" I have not. One cannot biblically divide social justice away from evangelism and discipleship, or the preaching ministry and worship. It is all part of the same interdependent theology. So whatever you have heard from others or what you assume I believe is in serious error.


He supports a "contrary gospel?" That is a very serious charge, one that makes one accursed. (Galatians 1:8). What do you mean?


You don't know a thing about me and you speak foolish lies based on your vain imagination.

You seem to though agree that doctors and women should have final say if to abort to not, and not God!
And we are not command as a nation to show more support and compassion towards illegals then our own citizens!
And just where did Jesus or his Apostles give to us the great Commission to get people work up, instead of saved?