Reformed V Biblical Salvation

[Dave G]

This IS Biblical Salvation.

No, it is not.

What you're describing is a merit-based system where God "paves the way", and all that we as men have to do is to "take Him up on His offer"...
I'm sorry, but that could not be further from the truth.

Biblical salvation, which is accompanied by eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son for all eternity ), is completely unconditional... as well as being an unmerited gift;
It is most definitely not a reward for doing what God requires of us.

IMO, you're confusing God's prior covenant ( the Law of Moses ) that involved a nationally chosen people,
with God's present covenant of grace with His spiritually chosen people.

Again and as in other threads where this has been discussed, salvation by grace does not entail "conditions"...

It is composed entirely of declarations and necessary evidences ( like spiritual "fingerprints" ) that must be present in a saved person's life;
These evidences ( for example, faith is one of them ( Hebrews 11:1 )) function as "indicators" of God having performed a miraculous and gracious work in and on a person through no effort of their own.



May God bless you with His gifts,
which are worth far more than money, or our efforts, can possibly buy.

 

[Dave G]

In Romans 9.22 we read of God bearing with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath. Why, unless He wants these to repent and be saved

Because His chosen people are being born and brought to repentance in each generation.
For their sake He bears long with those who are not His elect.

For God so loves the entire human race, is what the Greek says in John 3:16.

The Greek says "world", not the entire human race.
See Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9, as well as Romans 9:24 and 1 Corinthians 1:24 for who God's elect are composed of.

God does not desire that any person is lost, with is taught in 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:1-6, and elsewhere.

Please read the context for those two verses.
As an example, in 2 Peter 3:9, the context for the "us-ward" is the "beloved" from verse 8, is it not?

It's describing His people, not all of mankind.

This is how these verses are read as the Bible intends, without personal theology

That is how I read them for myself, when I take them in context with all the rest of the Bible.

Biblical salvation is all of Grace, with zero "works", as Romans 11:6 tells us, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace"

Amen.

But what you're describing, based on your own theology, involves man trying to please God by doing what He requires.
That is works, my friend, and that is what makes up the core of any merit-demerit system;
Said system is founded upon conditions that we have to meet, or we don't get what we seek.

Contrary to that type of system,
Biblical salvation is by grace ( complete lack of merit in any way, shape or form ), not of works, lest any man should boast.


As always, I wish you well sir, and I will make no further replies in this thread.
Thank you for the privilege of posting.

 

[37818]

The Greek says "world", not the entire human race.

A side question. Can you find a use Greek New Testament where the Greek word kosmos cannot be interpreted to mean mankind?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A side question. Can you find a use Greek New Testament where the Greek word kosmos cannot be interpreted to mean mankind?

Acts of the Apostles 17:24. 'God who made the world and everything in it........'

 

[Iconoclast]

Well I guess if we want to we can go to Ezekiel 11:19

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Or we can even go to Ezekiel 36:26

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Or we can go to Jeremiah 31:33

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So where is the New Testament?

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

But I am particular I like my Christianity in action!

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Brother Glen

Very clear Brother to any who can see

 

[AustinC]

In Romans 9.22 we read of God bearing with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath. Why, unless He wants these to repent and be saved

You are attempting to tell God why he does what he does. That is an unwise thing to do.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Greek says "world", not the entire human race.

J H Thayer:

“the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”

W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:

“of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”


J Parkhurst:

“the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”

E Robinson:

“the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”

Hermann Cremer:

“It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”

The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:

“in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”

G Kittel and G Friedrich:

“All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe”

W E Vine:

“the human race, mankind”

A T Robertson:

The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”

M Vincent:

“The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race”

 

[AustinC]

J H Thayer:

“the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”

W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:

“of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”


J Parkhurst:

“the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”

E Robinson:

“the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”

Hermann Cremer:

“It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”

The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:

“in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”

G Kittel and G Friedrich:

“All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe”

W E Vine:

“the human race, mankind”

A T Robertson:

The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”

M Vincent:

“The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race”

You're arguing a moot point. God loved the kosmos. Let it be. The key phrase in John 3:16 is "whosoever believes", which connotates a particular person from the kosmos believing.
The Bible is clear that humans do not naturally believe in the redemptive atoning work of Christ Jesus as their only saving hope. God must quicken them to give them faith to believe.

If humans quicken themselves to believe, then humans are to be congratulated for their own saving efforts. If God quickens then one must ask: Does God quicken all the kosmos or particular people in the kosmos? The answer comes right after John 3:16.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

God either quickens those whom he chooses or humans quicken themselves. sbw, which one is it?

 

[37818]

J H Thayer:

“the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”

W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:

“of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”


J Parkhurst:

“the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”

E Robinson:

“the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”

Hermann Cremer:

“It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”

The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:

“in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”

G Kittel and G Friedrich:

“All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe”

W E Vine:

“the human race, mankind”

A T Robertson:

The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”

M Vincent:

“The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race”

Regarding Acts 17:24, ". . . God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . .". The Greek en translated as "therein" can also translated as "among" like "and all things among it." . . . και παντα τα εν αυτω . . . .

 

[SavedByGrace]

Regarding Acts 17:24, ". . . God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . .". The Greek en translated as "therein" can also translated as "among" like "and all things among it." . . . και παντα τα εν αυτω . . . .

What are you trying to say

 

[MB]

No lost sinner can do anything required by God before enabled by the Spirit to do such!

What Bible says so?And where in that Bible. Is that in 1st yeshua 1 ?.
MB

 

[37818]

What are you trying to say

<sigh> ". . . God that made the humanrace and all things among it, . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

<sigh> ". . . God that made the humankind and all things among it, . . ."

Yeah but how does that show the universal Death of Jesus

 

[37818]

Yeah but how does that show the universal Death of Jesus

It was a side issue.

The Greek says "world", not the entire human race.

A side question. Can you find a use Greek New Testament where the Greek word kosmos cannot be interpreted to mean mankind?

Acts of the Apostles 17:24. 'God who made the world and everything in it........'

 

[Yeshua1]

What Bible says so?And where in that Bible. Is that in 1st yeshua 1 ?.
MB

Nope, John 1:13

 

[MB]

Nope, John 1:13

Everyone knows that it's God's will that we all be saved. Which is why we are invited.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Everyone knows that it's God's will that we all be saved. Which is why we are invited.
MB

No, more that those who are being saved is due to the will of God that they are chosen in Christ!

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, more that those who are being saved is due to the will of God that they are chosen in Christ!

This is only theology and not biblical

 

[AustinC]

Everyone knows that it's God's will that we all be saved. Which is why we are invited.
MB

By your assertion the reader can conclude that God cannot accomplish what he wills since not all will be saved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nope, John 1:13

yet again a verse being forced to say something that it most certainly does NOT!