Robbing God of His Glory

Robbing God of His Glory

1689Dave’s Argument: If "General Redemption" means Christ died for each and every person, he did not save anyone, he only made it possible for people to save themselves. This robs God of his glory in salvation and allocates to people a value he thought worth dying for.

I’m using Dave’s argument because the argument seems to be widespread.

Argument restated: This concept of “Robbing God of His Glory” seems to be the “go to” or backup argument used to oppose the use of our Supernatural Free Will. It probably would come under the 5th Sola of Protestantism: Soli Deo Gloria. The idea seems to be that if “you” are doing something (cooperating) in the process to obtain your salvation then God is not doing it all. You then are saving yourself (working your way to heaven by yourself) and robbing God of His Glory. I think they would agree that this is a form of “boasting” (Eph 2:9) because Paul also refers to “Works”. Also, they would say it means God “failed” in saving those who were lost and maybe even failed in saving all.

Before I answer this argument

In Catholic Theology, you have to understand a couple of things first. I know you will disagree with all of this but you have to look past that and understand it the way we do in order to understand why we are not robbing God of His Glory. If you don’t, your arguments will be less convincing.

Here are the things:

Initial Justification = this is equal to your one-time Justification

We call it our “initial justification” and believe this happens at Baptism with the presence of Faith (Mark 16:16). Baptism “does it all” which means “God does it all”. That’s why we Baptize infants. There is nothing we can do to “save ourselves” in this “initial Justification”. We go from being in Original Sin to being in God’s Grace by God ALONE. God does it all.

(2) Justification as an ongoing process - after the “Initial Justification” we say you can be further justified. We say this because we see Sanctification and Justification as the same thing. Granted they are 2 different words but, in Greek, they are basically the same and very fluid in scripture. The DRV uses the word “Justice” in places where the KJV uses “Righteousness” many times. We see the “removal of sin” (Justification) and the “growing in grace” (Sanctification) basically as the flip side of the same thing - the less sin, the more grace; the more sin, the less grace. This describes our growth or lack of growth in holiness or sanctity (Rom 8:30 only mentions Justification and NOT Sanctification). We believe Judgement is after death (Heb 9:27) so we must continue confessing sin. We can lose our Initial Justification through mortal sin and be restored again through the Sacrament of Confession. Confessing and repenting of sin is part of Perseverance because you need grace to be saved and are restored in grace through Confession. This Confessing of sin keeps us from boasting that we are saving ourselves. Confessing sin does just the opposite - it humbles us (2 Chron 7:14). The Sacrament of Confession (John 20:21-23) takes away sin after Baptism. We are not taking away our own sin, therefore, God does it all in Confession. Finally, anything that we “Cooperate” in using our supernatural free Will (Phil 2:12-13), that moves us closer to Christ, AFTER we are in Christ (after our initial justification), is a Good Work. A reward for a Good Work is based on God’s Promises (Matt 5:1-12, Matt 25:24, Matt 19:29, Matt 25:21, Luke 6:38, Rom 2:6, 1 Cor 3:8, Col 3:24, Heb 10:35, Heb 11:6, 2 Tim 4:8, Heb 6:10). Good Works are, at the same time, BOTH gifts of God and meritorious acts of man (Council of Orange, Denz 191 [DS 388] Can. 18, also see Ludwig Ott) because eternal life is BOTH a gift and reward (Rom 2:6-7). Good Works are how we grow in sanctity (Grace - 2 Pet 3:18, John 3:30) so we can have that Confident Assurance in our salvation (1 John 5:13-14, Heb 3:6, 2 Pet 1:10) and also have greater rewards in heaven (Rom 2:6, Matt 10:42).

 

Robbing God of His Glory

A. In This World - Glory of God is in His Mercy

[Mercy = forgiveness = Grace Ps 83:12 (Ps 84:11), Heb 4:16, Rom 15:9]

(Some of the following comes from the Summa: STh., II-II q.132 a.1)

First, Scripture makes a distinction between the following:

Glory and Vainglory

Scripture says we are to “Seek Glory” (God’s Glory) but we are not to seek Vainglory (our Glory):

Rom 2:6-7 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

This verse shows “seeking Glory” as something we are doing (with our Supernatural Free Will). A Supernatural Free Will is our Will with God’s Grace in it. How do we seek glory? “Patience in Good Works” (Perseverance)(James 1:4, Luke 21:19, James 5:8, Heb 10:36, Gal 6:9 Aquinas’ Commentary on Romans #196).We should be “Seeking Glory” after our initial justification; after we are “in Christ”. Practically speaking, I would define Glory as grace in this world and eternal life in the next (Eph 1:6, 2 Pet 3:18). One leads to the other. In this “seeking God’s Glory”, God is “Assisting” us with His grace (Actual Grace) and we are “Cooperating” with that grace (Phil 2:13, Rom 8:28, Mark 16:20, James 2:22, 1 Cor 16:16, 2 Cor 6:1) so that we can grow in grace (2 Pet 3:18, 2 Cor 9:10, Eph 4:7, Apoc 22:11). Remember: This is AFTER our “Initial Justification”. After we are in Christ. Seeking God’s Glory (Rom 2:7) doesn’t mean we are not “receiving God’s Glory” (1 Cor 4:7, 1 Cor 2:12). “Receiving” is a Gift and “Seeking” is a Supernatural Virtue (Luke 8:46, Gal 2:20, Luke 17:21, 1 Cor 13:13). Both come from God. Rom 2 is not a failed Plan A. Paul says it is “my Gospel” (Rom 2:16). Paul speaks about our initial Justification (Rom 6:23, Rom 3:28) and about our final or ongoing Justification (Rom 2:7, Rom 2:13, Matt 12:37).

John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek?

This says the same thing. We should be seeking God’s Glory. It is something we are doing with God’s grace.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Same thing. We are rewarded when we seek him. Seeking Him is seeking Glory.

1 Cor 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatsoever else you do, do all to the glory of God.

Notice: You are DOING something for The Glory of God . You are doing it “in God’s Grace”. By reminding you that you should do it for the Glory of God implies a choice and the doing of something - the need of Supernatural Free Will.

1 Cor 2:12 Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God.

Matt 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

My Comment: There is nothing wrong with acknowledging to yourself and to others the good you have that comes from God (what we have received 1 Cor 4:7). We do this at Mass when we Praise and Thank God (This is in the presence of others). Protestants do too at their Service and when they are Witnessing. Notice: We are doing something [praising and thanking God for what we received (1 Cor 4:7)] with our supernatural free Will.

Ps 4:3 O ye sons of men, how long will you be dull of heart? why do you love vanity, and seek after lying?

My Comment: Vainglory - This verse describes Vainglory and seeking Glory that is vain is a sin. Vainglory is when a man seeks Glory for himself and not for God’s honor or for the welfare of a neighbor. It is also seeking something to make us noticed. Vainglory is always a sin but we believe it doesn’t always cut off our relationship with God (Venial sin). It can lead to that, for example, when a man seeks riches (greed) to the total neglect of his Faith (mortal sin). St. John Chrysostom said it almost always resides in Christians (venial sin). When a Christian does a Good Work, he is doing it for God but many times he has a little desire in his heart (disposition) for his own Glory. You see this a lot when people volunteer. Aquinas used this verse to contrast Glory with Vainglory. We should seek Glory but not Vainglory.

I would breakdown Vainglory into these 2 main categories or types:

1. Taking credit for something God Did

2. Seeking earthly honors and riches above seeking God (this is one example - this is a problem with Priorities - also “earthly honors” means “secular honors” here)

Glory Verses:

John 13:13 You call me Master and Lord. And you say well: for so I am.

Matt 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

2 Cor 10:17-18 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 18 For not he who commendeth (approves) himself is approved: but he, whom God commendeth (approves).

 

Vainglory Verses:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory. (DRV)

Gal 5:26 Let us not be made desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through contention: neither by vain glory. But in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves…

1 Thess 2:6 Nor sought we glory of men, neither of you, nor of others.

John 12:43 For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

My Comment: Seeking Glory is not a sin in the following cases:

God seeks Glory for our sake (John 13:13)

Man seeks Glory for his own sake (Rom 2:7)

(means seeking grace and eternal life)

Man seeks Glory for the good of others (Matt 5:16)

St. Augustine used John 13:13 to show that God sought Glory for our sake so, likewise, it is not wrong for us to seek Glory for others sake. By the way, St. Augustine used the term “Vainglory” to distinguish it from “Glory” as well. He quotes Gal 5:26 (Augustine, Sermon on the Mount 1.7.18) as in many other places. Other verses using Vainglory is Phil 2:3, 1 Thess 2:6 and John 12:43.

My Comment: Important Propositions:

What we receive from God is true Glory (1 Cor 2:12) (STh., II-II q.132 a.1)

True Glory was promised as a reward for Good Works (Rom 2:7, Matt 5:1-12)

Works of Virtue for Human Glory are not true Glory

(I think what Aquinas means here is doing a Good Work but for your own Glory instead of God’s - definition of Vainglory)

Works of Virtue for earthly goods are not true Glory

Works of Virtue for earthly goods are for man’s Glory

Works of Virtue for earthly goods are Vainglory

(These last 4 are the meaning of 2 Cor 10:18 )

B. In the Next World - Glory of God is in His Justice

Luke 21:27 And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud, with great power and majesty. (DRV)

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (KJV)

STh., Supplementum q.90 a.2

On the contrary, It is written (Luke 21:27): Then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with great power and majesty. Now majesty and power pertain to glory. Therefore He will appear in the form of glory.

Since then at His first coming He came in order to make satisfaction for us to the Father, He came in the form of our weakness. But since at His second coming He will come in order to execute the Father’s justice on men, He will have to show forth His glory which is in Him by reason of His communication with the Father: and therefore He will appear in the form of glory.

My Comment: What Aquinas is saying is that:

(1) First Coming - God came to make “Satisfaction” (Redemption or Ransom) for us that covers our whole life. Redemption “makes possible” our salvation through God’s Grace and yet He still permits (allows) us to sin. HE COMES TO SAVE.

(2) Second Coming - Then Christ “will come in order to execute the Father’s Justice”. When Christ executes justice then you will see His Glory (Luke 21:27).(Also see John 12:47-48) This execution of justice is the General Judgement. HE COMES TO JUDGE.

So it’s a “delayed Glory” in this sense. In one way, you could interpret this to mean that even if you think you are robbing God of His Glory, God is only permitting it for now, because He will, in the end, execute His Justice which is also His Glory (Matt 25:32ff). So, in the end, you can’t really Rob God of His Glory.

In Conclusion: Redemption (General Redemption) and Supernatural Free Will (used in seeking Glory) are compatible and do not Rob God of His Glory. Man cooperating in the salvation process, therefore, does not Rob God of His Glory. God wants us to seek His Glory but “Permits” us to seek Vainglory - the potential of both are in our SAME WILL at the SAME TIME. Seeking Vainglory is the true robbing of God’s Glory.

 

Is 53:11 Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Rom 5:19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.

Hi Kyredneck,
You really made me study Is 53:11. I still am meditating on it. Turretin thinks this “Knowledge” in Is 53:11 is “Faith”. I think the “Knowledge” includes “Obedience”because the parallel verse is Rom 5:19 which has to do with Obedience. So verse 11 could maybe be restated as: “….by his ‘Obedience’ shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.”
I do know that we both agree that initially we can do nothing to obtain our initial justification. I do notice that you put “Faith” in “Faith/Choice/ Free Will” as having nothing to do with our Initial Justification. I think you say that because Grace has to come first. You know, we agree that grace comes first but that’s what Faith is! Faith is grace. It is a gift and God has to give it to us first. We believe this grace is transient (temporary) and does not Justify you by itself (it is necessary) but gives you the strength to say “Yes” to God if you want to. It is not irresistible. I know you probably believe it is. So we do have some agreement and some disagreement.

 

Hi Kyredneck,

Thanks for your 2 extra Bible versions. Sometimes I use God’s Word Translation when my back is against the wall and I cannot understand a Bible verse! To be honest, I never trust this translation but sometimes it helps me get started. So I understand looking at different translations. My further comments below are just me “thinking out loud” meaning it is a work in process. I know Is 53 is all about the Suffering Servant but you caused me to look at it different. This is what I have come up with so far. I hope it all makes sense. Thanks for the quote!

Here’s a little more comment: Is 53:11 says “Because his soul hath laboured”. The KJV uses “Travail” instead of “Labored”. Christ’s soul in “Labor” means Christ labored or travailed in “Preaching and Teaching”. Travail implies that the work was hard or that Christ suffered while doing it. The “Knowledge” also means Christ’s “Teaching”. Turretin was right on that. Aquinas then quotes Rom 5:1 but remember, Faith is both teaching and a virtue, therefore, something you must do (STh., II-II q.4 a.5). We see Rom 5:1 as exercising our Faith “after” our initial justification because it is in the present tense; not the past tense. Obedience doesn’t take the place of Teaching but without Christ’s Obedience to the Father unto death (Phil 2:8), Faith would have no power and would not have continued to be preached and taught. So, the bottom line, we believe this verse doesn’t prove we are Justified by Faith alone or before Faith because Faith includes Baptism and many other things. What it does show us is that, by Christ’s obedience to the Father, He suffered and died for us and that suffering included teaching and preaching. This was all prophecied. If you look at this verse in terms of our salvation, we must do like Christ did - He preached and taught and was obedient to the Father through His suffering and death. Likewise, we must receive this preaching and teaching and THEN be obedient to that preaching and teaching, carrying the cross until our death (Luke 9:23). (See Aquinas’ Commentary on Isaiah, #973-974)

 

Hi Kyredneck,

Correction on Rom 5:1 - this is in the past tense but what I meant to say is the way you are justified is by a movement of your free Will which is the Virtue of Faith. After our initial justification, other verses show present and future tenses of justification which bring this out (Rom 3:24, Gal 2:17, Gal 4:5, Rom 6:16).

 

Hi Kyredneck,

I guess I’m full of talk this morning. Lol Speaking of Biblehub, I go there pretty often. I was pleasantly surprised to see they have Fr. Joseph Pohle’s work on Dogmatic Theology, volume 7 titled “Grace: Actual and Habitual”. This is volume 7 of 12 volumes. He is probably my favorite modern theologian after Fr Garrigou-LaGrange even though he was a “Molinist”. Lol For a Calvinist, he would be equivalent to a Berkof or maybe a Grudem. I also like Fr. Sylvester Joseph Hunter and Dr. Ludwig Ott. These 3 are my main “go to” theology books. There are others.