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Do humans become angels when they die?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021.

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  1. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    For me, the most compelling reason to question Martin Luther’s doctrine of soul sleep is the possibility that humans become angels when they die.

    When the believers thought that Peter had died, they said it must have been his angel waiting at the door:

    Also, Jesus may have suggested that children become angels when they die:
    Acts 12:15 and Matthew 18:10 might refer to humans having guardian angels, rather than becoming angels. But here's another interesting passage:

    Is Acts 23:8 distinguishing angels and spirits from each other or saying that they are two ways of describing a departed human?

    The Sadducees only accepted the Books of Moses as their Old Testament canon, which include references to the angels that pre-existed the creation of man. So when Acts 23:8 says that the Sadducees denied the existence of angels, it might have meant the angels of departed humans.


     
    #1 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    More conjecture, that has ZERO Bible support!
     
    #2 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
  3. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Do you have outbursts like this at church when you hear something you don't like or understand?

    What specifically has no Biblical support, Martin Luther's doctrine of soul sleep or N. T. Wright's assertion that the Acts of the Apostles equates departed spirits with angels?

    I think that Martin Luther and N. T. Wright both had Bible-based arguments for their respective positions, whether or not we agree with them.
     
    #3 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    BOTH are totally UNBIBLICAL! N T Wright is a heretic, so I will never be interested in what he has to say!
     
    #4 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "soul sleep" is shown to be completely UNBIBLICAL from the following passages of Scripture

    In the Account of The Rich Man and Lazarus, in Luke 16:19-31, shows that after death, both the Rich Man, who represents the lost, and Lazarus, who represents the saved, were both fully conscience. no SLEEP

    In Luke 23:43 Jesus promises the repentant thief on the cross, "And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”. After death heaven and not SLEEP!

    In Philippians 1:21-23 Paul says, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." After death heaven and not SLEEP!

    In Revelation 6 we read,

    9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

    None of these were "sleeping"!
     
    #5 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
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  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Chapter and verse from the Torah that says this?
     
    #6 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There is not ONE verse in the entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that humans after they die, will become angels. Jesus Christ Came into this world to save humans, and not angels. Hebrews 2:16, "For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham"
     
    #7 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
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  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    People do not become angels. There is no “soul sleep” as proven in post #5.

    peace to you
     
    #8 canadyjd, Jul 11, 2021
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Canadyid (and SBG) as it is encouraging to see believers stand up for biblical truth.
     
    #9 Van, Jul 11, 2021
  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    People do NOT "turn into" angels when they die. This is an untruth that needs to STOP being told to children, people who are grieving, or preached from the false pulpit. Heaven does not "gain another angel" when our loved ones die nor do our loved ones "gain their angel wings" when they die.

    • Humans are created as humans. Angels are created as angels. There is not creature that God has made that turns into another one. God SEPARATED humans and angels as to their purpose by creating them as different entities.

    • People have the capacity to be saved. Angels do not. Angels "long to look into" the things of the gospel preached to mankind. 1 Peter 1:12
     
    #10 Scarlett O., Jul 11, 2021
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #11 37818, Jul 11, 2021
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    #12 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
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  13. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    I think you could make a Biblical case for either position, as Martin Luther and N. T. Wright have evidently done. Also, there's a difference between angels that pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection.
     
    #13 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    then why don't YOU show this from the Bible? NEITHER are taught ANYWHERE in the Inspired 66 Books of God's Word!
     
    #14 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
  15. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    The onus is on YOU, brother. The responsibility is yours to support your claim using holy scriptures.

    You've made the claim that there is a "difference between angels and pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection."

    I could come here and say that I just saw a purple dinosaur running down the street and his name was Barney.

    The onus would be on ME to prove that .... not on you all to UNprove it.

    You've made an unbiblical claim. Support it. NOT with human writings, but with scripture.

    If you cannot, I am closing this thread.
     
    #15 Scarlett O., Jul 11, 2021
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  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with your request to provide evidence from the Bible's Teaching
     
    #16 SavedByGrace, Jul 11, 2021
  17. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    I think I already did that. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Please turn your Bibles to Matthew 18:10, Acts 12:15, and Acts 23:8.

    Please read the following, and then tell me if you are still having a hard time understanding:

    My own position is closer to Martin Luther, that our souls "sleep" during the intermediate state.

    While I don’t necessarily subscribe to the doctrine of soul sleep, it answers to objection of materialists for belief in an afterlife. If human consciousness ends at the moment of death, that means nothing to an all-powerful God who can raise us on the last day.

    Luther quoted Ecclesiastes 9:5, “The dead know nothing,” partly in order to defend his rejection of purgatory and of praying to Mary and the saints:
    Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, there is no concept of the immortality of the soul in the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, for example, the word translated for soul means “breath,” and is given to both animals and humans.

    The Old Testament’s hope for an afterlife, like in the writings of Luther, is in the resurrection on the last day:
    IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    It’s also worth noting that some of the early church fathers explicitly taught the doctrine of soul sleep:

    This is more from Athenagoras of Athens:
    The teaching of soul sleep was ultimately condemned because it contradicted praying to the saints. I assume Martin Luther was aware of this early church history.

    True to the doctrine of soul sleep, when Saul visited the necromancer, she conjured up a demon, not Samuel:

    If your level of exegesis is so low that you aren't able to consider alternative interpretations and perspectives, not even from men more learned than you like Martin Luther and N. T. Wright, that might say more about you than it does about them.

    There has been great debate throughout church history on the intermediate state of the dead, between the moment we die and the day of the resurrection, because the Bible lends itself to various interpretations on the intermediate state.
     
    #17 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
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  18. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Why would I have a hard time understanding these scriptures? They are crystal clear and plain as DAY.

    I like studying scriptures in their very important contexts.

    Matthew 18:10 all by itself has NOTHING to do with what happens to people when they die, let alone humans turning into angels. In context of several verses before and a few after this is about:

    • coming to Christ humble and as a little child, welcoming those who come to Christ as a little child, not offending the little ones [new in Christ] nor causing them to sin, "cutting off/out" your hand or eye before causing them to sin, woe to the offenders, and protecting them as the shepherd leave the 99 to save the 1 lost.
    • It also teaches that God has angels watching over Christians from the get-go when they are "little ones".
    • There is NOTHING in this chapter or verse that speaks of death, let alone human turning into angels after death. In FACT, the opposite is true. This passage DISTINGUISHES humans and angels.

    Acts 12:15 has nothing to do with people turning into angels. These people were praying FOR Peter and they thought it was "his angel" knocking at the door. "His" = ownership, not personage. They were dead wrong - there was no angel at the door. It was Peter. This does NOT teach that people turn into angels. Nor that those people believed it. "His" angel. Again, this DISTINGUISHES humans and angels.


    Acts 23:8 again has NOTHING to do with humans turning into angels when they die. It's not even teaching about death, period. Paul has been brought before the Sanhedrin - the Pharisees and Sadducees [The Supreme Court of God's people]. He is about to be in very BIG trouble. He devises a ploy to escape. He knows the left and the right [like Democrats and Republicans today] of this court did not believe the same thing nor did they get along. Since he used to be a Pharisee and knew how they argued with each other, he cleverly yelled out, "I'm being persecuted because I am a Pharisee and believe in the Resurrection!!!" The Pharisees who were against him, now wanted to defend him and, the Sadducees did not and a big bru-ha-ha broke out. The Bible says a great argument rose up in the Sanhedrin and Paul escaped.. This is not about death. It is not about people turning into angels.
     
    #18 Scarlett O., Jul 11, 2021
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  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I think the Martin Luther and yourself should have looked at

    Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

    Note not angels and not asleep.

    The two verses you have from Acts only show that some Jews of that time believed the dead became angels. They do not work to prove that we become angels at death.
    As for Mat 18:10, the meaning of this verse is unclear so it is pure speculation on your part.
    It could be understood to teach that all believers have an individual guardian angel or it could mean that we are not to look down on others or yet it could be that God has set a specific group of angels to care for children. As you can see there could be any number of views.
     
    #19 Silverhair, Jul 11, 2021
  20. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding Luther keep in mind that he was in an environment that literally forced the view of purgatory. That said and I don't defend theologians nor do I believe something because it is taught by someone that has an abundance of graduate degrees.

    From Kerr's Compend of Luther's Theology page 241

    "It is true that souls hear, perceive and see after death; but how it is done, we do not understand... If we undertake to give an account of such things after the manner of this life, then we are fools. Christ has given a good answer; for his disciples also were without doubt just as curious. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live," (John xi 25); likewise: "whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's,"(Rom. xiv 8)...Abraham lives. God is the God of the living. If now one would say: "The soul of Abraham lives with God, his body lives with the dead," it would be a distinction which to my mind is mere rot! I will dispute it. One must say: "The whole Abraham, the entire man, lives!"
     
    #20 thomas15, Jul 11, 2021
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