Do humans become angels when they die?

[Humble Disciple]

For me, the most compelling reason to question Martin Luther’s doctrine of soul sleep is the possibility that humans become angels when they die.

When the believers thought that Peter had died, they said it must have been his angel waiting at the door:

Acts 12:15
“You’re out of your mind,” they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, “It must be his angel.”

Also, Jesus may have suggested that children become angels when they die:

Matthew 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 12:15 and Matthew 18:10 might refer to humans having guardian angels, rather than becoming angels. But here's another interesting passage:

Acts 23:8
For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.

Is Acts 23:8 distinguishing angels and spirits from each other or saying that they are two ways of describing a departed human?

The Sadducees only accepted the Books of Moses as their Old Testament canon, which include references to the angels that pre-existed the creation of man. So when Acts 23:8 says that the Sadducees denied the existence of angels, it might have meant the angels of departed humans.

Second, I agree with N. T. Wright (Resurrection) that the use of angel elsewhere in Acts points to angel here potentially relating to the dead prior to some future resurrection event (the "intermediate state"). When Peter showed up at the door of the prayer meeting, they wondered if it might be his angel (Acts 12:15), meaning that an angelic form for Acts can be an after death/pre-future resurrection event form.
http://kenschenck.blogspot.com/2012/01/acts-238-and-resurrection.html

 

[SavedByGrace]

For me, the most compelling reason to question Martin Luther’s doctrine of soul sleep is the possibility that humans become angels when they die.

More conjecture, that has ZERO Bible support!

 

[Humble Disciple]

More conjecture, that has ZERO Bible support!

Do you have outbursts like this at church when you hear something you don't like or understand?

What specifically has no Biblical support, Martin Luther's doctrine of soul sleep or N. T. Wright's assertion that the Acts of the Apostles equates departed spirits with angels?

I think that Martin Luther and N. T. Wright both had Bible-based arguments for their respective positions, whether or not we agree with them.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Do you have outbursts like this at church when you hear something you don't like or understand?

What specifically has no Biblical support, Martin Luther's doctrine of soul sleep or N. T. Wright's assertion that the Acts of the Apostles equates departed spirits with angels?

I think that Martin Luther and N. T. Wright both had Bible-based arguments for their respective positions, whether or not we agree with them.

BOTH are totally UNBIBLICAL! N T Wright is a heretic, so I will never be interested in what he has to say!

 

[SavedByGrace]

"soul sleep" is shown to be completely UNBIBLICAL from the following passages of Scripture

In the Account of The Rich Man and Lazarus, in Luke 16:19-31, shows that after death, both the Rich Man, who represents the lost, and Lazarus, who represents the saved, were both fully conscience. no SLEEP

In Luke 23:43 Jesus promises the repentant thief on the cross, "And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”. After death heaven and not SLEEP!

In Philippians 1:21-23 Paul says, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." After death heaven and not SLEEP!

In Revelation 6 we read,

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

None of these were "sleeping"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

which include references to the angels that pre-existed the creation of man

Chapter and verse from the Torah that says this?

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is not ONE verse in the entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that humans after they die, will become angels. Jesus Christ Came into this world to save humans, and not angels. Hebrews 2:16, "For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham"

 

[canadyjd]

People do not become angels. There is no “soul sleep” as proven in post #5.

peace to you

 

[Van]

People do not become angels. There is no “soul sleep” as proven in post #5.

peace to you

Thanks Canadyid (and SBG) as it is encouraging to see believers stand up for biblical truth.

 

[Scarlett O.]

People do NOT "turn into" angels when they die. This is an untruth that needs to STOP being told to children, people who are grieving, or preached from the false pulpit. Heaven does not "gain another angel" when our loved ones die nor do our loved ones "gain their angel wings" when they die.

• Humans are created as humans. Angels are created as angels. There is not creature that God has made that turns into another one. God SEPARATED humans and angels as to their purpose by creating them as different entities.

• People have the capacity to be saved. Angels do not. Angels "long to look into" the things of the gospel preached to mankind. 1 Peter 1:12

 

[37818]

@Humble Disciple
God created man to be in His image, Genesis 1:26-27.
And of angels, Hebrews 1:7, Psalms 104:4, "Who maketh his angels spirits, . . ." And Jesus argues man is not like the angels until the resurrection, Matthew 22:30.

 

[SavedByGrace]

@Humble Disciple
God created man to be in His image, Genesis 1:26-27.
And of angels, Hebrews 1:7, Psalms 104:4, "Who maketh his angels spirits, . . ." And Jesus argues man is not like the angels until the resurrection, Matthew 22:30.

But humans will not change into angels after they die

 

[Humble Disciple]

People do not become angels. There is no “soul sleep” as proven in post #5.

peace to you

I think you could make a Biblical case for either position, as Martin Luther and N. T. Wright have evidently done. Also, there's a difference between angels that pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I think you could make a Biblical case for either position

then why don't YOU show this from the Bible? NEITHER are taught ANYWHERE in the Inspired 66 Books of God's Word!

 

[Scarlett O.]

I think you could make a Biblical case for either position, as Martin Luther and N. T. Wright have evidently done. Also, there's a difference between angels that pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection.

The onus is on YOU, brother. The responsibility is yours to support your claim using holy scriptures.

You've made the claim that there is a "difference between angels and pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection."

I could come here and say that I just saw a purple dinosaur running down the street and his name was Barney.

The onus would be on ME to prove that .... not on you all to UNprove it.

You've made an unbiblical claim. Support it. NOT with human writings, but with scripture.

If you cannot, I am closing this thread.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The onus is on YOU, brother. The responsibility is yours to support your claim using holy scriptures.

You've made the claim that there is a "difference between angels and pre-existed the creation of humans and humans becoming angels after they die, in the intermediate state before the resurrection."

I could come here and say that I just saw a purple dinosaur running down the street and his name was Barney.

The onus would be on ME to prove that .... not on you all to UNprove it.

You've made an unbiblical claim. Support it. NOT with human writings, but with scripture.

If you cannot, I am closing this thread.

Totally agree with your request to provide evidence from the Bible's Teaching

 

[Humble Disciple]

The onus is on YOU, brother. The responsibility is yours to support your claim using holy scriptures.

I think I already did that. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Please turn your Bibles to Matthew 18:10, Acts 12:15, and Acts 23:8.

Please read the following, and then tell me if you are still having a hard time understanding:

23:8, however, is a very significant verse, even though hard to understand. It says that the Sadducees do not believe in resurrection, neither angel nor spirit, but the Pharisees confess both. This verse has sometimes been taken to mean that Sadducees did not believe in angels (and, anachronistically, people used to associate them with modern liberals who didn't believe in the supernatural--a good example of how easy it is to infect our interpretation with our own context).

But this would be the only evidence anywhere to suggest Sadducees didn't believe in angels. (the idea that Sadducees only followed the Law and not the other parts of the OT is similarly based on the contested interpretation of a single statement in Josephus. By the way, there are angels in the Law). And what is worse, the "no angels" interpretation of this verse seems wrong.

If you look at the structure of this verse, it seems to go something like the following:
Sadducees do not believe in resurrection...
Neither in the angel form nor the spirit form...
But Pharisees confess both types of resurrection

So the question becomes, what is angel resurrection and what is spirit resurrection? This is a good example of how we read our categories into the biblical texts and say we have a biblical worldview. The distinction between material and immaterial, that we generally apply to these issues, comes from Descartes in the 1500s and not from the Bible. The lines they drew around reality were different in biblical times.

So the difference between embodied/corporeal and disembodied/incorporeal for them was not the same as the Cartesian difference between material/immaterial. Spirits were thinner material for them but still material. Spirit was breath and wind. To be embodied might mean a different material or a thicker material but still material.

So what is the difference between angels and spirits? Some thought of angels as spirits (e.g., Heb. 1:14). But it's possible that Luke thought of angels as more embodied than spirits. NT Wright (Resurrection of the Son of God) has suggested that Acts 23:8 is talking about the intermediate state of the dead. When the house church thinks Peter is dead, they wonder if it is his angel at the door (12:15).
Common Denominator: Sadducees believed in angels (Acts 22b-23a)

My own position is closer to Martin Luther, that our souls "sleep" during the intermediate state.

While I don’t necessarily subscribe to the doctrine of soul sleep, it answers to objection of materialists for belief in an afterlife. If human consciousness ends at the moment of death, that means nothing to an all-powerful God who can raise us on the last day.

However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[98] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says

Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[99]

Elsewhere Luther states that

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half-hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[100]
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

John 11
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep…
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Luther quoted Ecclesiastes 9:5, “The dead know nothing,” partly in order to defend his rejection of purgatory and of praying to Mary and the saints:
Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, there is no concept of the immortality of the soul in the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, for example, the word translated for soul means “breath,” and is given to both animals and humans.

The Old Testament’s hope for an afterlife, like in the writings of Luther, is in the resurrection on the last day:
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

It’s also worth noting that some of the early church fathers explicitly taught the doctrine of soul sleep:

The earliest unambiguous instance of Christian mortalism is found in Tatian’s Address to the Greeks from the second half of the second century. Tatian writes: “The soul is not in itself immortal… If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved.”[78]

Tatian’s contemporary Athenagoras of Athens came close to mortalism by teaching that souls sleep dreamlessly between death and resurrection: “[T]hose who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life.”[79]…

Eustratios of Constantinople (after 582) denounced this and what he called hypnopsychism (“soul sleep”).[84] The issue was connected to that of the intercession of saints…

Mortalism evidently persisted since various Byzantine writers had to defend the doctrine of the veneration of saints against those who said the saints sleep.[86] [page needed]

John the Deacon (eleventh century) attacked those who “dare to say that praying to the saints is like shouting in the ears of the deaf, as if they had drunk from the mythical waters of Oblivion.”[87]
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

This is more from Athenagoras of Athens:

But it is impossible for him to continue unless he rise again. For if no resurrection were to take place, the nature of men as men would not continue.
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection of the Dead (Athenagoras)

The teaching of soul sleep was ultimately condemned because it contradicted praying to the saints. I assume Martin Luther was aware of this early church history.

True to the doctrine of soul sleep, when Saul visited the necromancer, she conjured up a demon, not Samuel:

The fact that the spirit rises “out of the earth” is a telling detail. The Bible consistently indicates that spirits that come from the earth are not from God, as His messengers come from Him in heaven (see Galatians 1:8; Revelation 10:1; 14:6, 17; 15:1; 18:1; 20:1; etc.). Spirits associated with the earth are demons, who come from Satan, the god of this world (II Corinthians 4:4; see Job 1:6-7; 2:1-2; Luke 4:5-7; Revelation 12:9; 13:1-2, 11; 16:13-14). The writer of the book is indicating that this spirit is not Samuel but a demon impersonating him.

In Hebrew, the woman describes this being as elohim. She may have meant that the spirit was one of the “strong ones,” which is the meaning of its root, el, but that is unlikely. Here, the word is accompanied by a plural verb, so her actual words are, “I saw gods ascend out of the earth.” When elohim is paired with a plural verb, it is a scriptural indication of pagan gods (see Psalm 96:5; 97:7). Most likely, several spirits rose with the one she thought was Samuel. Would not the great prophet be accompanied by a retinue of angels?
1 Samuel 28:13 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary

If your level of exegesis is so low that you aren't able to consider alternative interpretations and perspectives, not even from men more learned than you like Martin Luther and N. T. Wright, that might say more about you than it does about them.

There has been great debate throughout church history on the intermediate state of the dead, between the moment we die and the day of the resurrection, because the Bible lends itself to various interpretations on the intermediate state.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I think I already did that. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Please turn your Bibles to Matthew 18:10, Acts 12:15, and Acts 23:8. Please read the following, and then tell me if you are still having a hard time understanding:

Why would I have a hard time understanding these scriptures? They are crystal clear and plain as DAY.

I like studying scriptures in their very important contexts.

Matthew 18:10 all by itself has NOTHING to do with what happens to people when they die, let alone humans turning into angels. In context of several verses before and a few after this is about:

• coming to Christ humble and as a little child, welcoming those who come to Christ as a little child, not offending the little ones [new in Christ] nor causing them to sin, "cutting off/out" your hand or eye before causing them to sin, woe to the offenders, and protecting them as the shepherd leave the 99 to save the 1 lost.
• It also teaches that God has angels watching over Christians from the get-go when they are "little ones".
• There is NOTHING in this chapter or verse that speaks of death, let alone human turning into angels after death. In FACT, the opposite is true. This passage DISTINGUISHES humans and angels.

Acts 12:15 has nothing to do with people turning into angels. These people were praying FOR Peter and they thought it was "his angel" knocking at the door. "His" = ownership, not personage. They were dead wrong - there was no angel at the door. It was Peter. This does NOT teach that people turn into angels. Nor that those people believed it. "His" angel. Again, this DISTINGUISHES humans and angels.


Acts 23:8 again has NOTHING to do with humans turning into angels when they die. It's not even teaching about death, period. Paul has been brought before the Sanhedrin - the Pharisees and Sadducees [The Supreme Court of God's people]. He is about to be in very BIG trouble. He devises a ploy to escape. He knows the left and the right [like Democrats and Republicans today] of this court did not believe the same thing nor did they get along. Since he used to be a Pharisee and knew how they argued with each other, he cleverly yelled out, "I'm being persecuted because I am a Pharisee and believe in the Resurrection!!!" The Pharisees who were against him, now wanted to defend him and, the Sadducees did not and a big bru-ha-ha broke out. The Bible says a great argument rose up in the Sanhedrin and Paul escaped.. This is not about death. It is not about people turning into angels.

 

[Silverhair]

I think I already did that. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Please turn your Bibles to Matthew 18:10, Acts 12:15, and Acts 23:8.

Please read the following, and then tell me if you are still having a hard time understanding:


My own position is closer to Martin Luther, that our souls "sleep" during the intermediate state.

I think the Martin Luther and yourself should have looked at

Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Note not angels and not asleep.

The two verses you have from Acts only show that some Jews of that time believed the dead became angels. They do not work to prove that we become angels at death.
As for Mat 18:10, the meaning of this verse is unclear so it is pure speculation on your part.
It could be understood to teach that all believers have an individual guardian angel or it could mean that we are not to look down on others or yet it could be that God has set a specific group of angels to care for children. As you can see there could be any number of views.

 

[thomas15]

Regarding Luther keep in mind that he was in an environment that literally forced the view of purgatory. That said and I don't defend theologians nor do I believe something because it is taught by someone that has an abundance of graduate degrees.

From Kerr's Compend of Luther's Theology page 241

"It is true that souls hear, perceive and see after death; but how it is done, we do not understand... If we undertake to give an account of such things after the manner of this life, then we are fools. Christ has given a good answer; for his disciples also were without doubt just as curious. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live," (John xi 25); likewise: "whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's,"(Rom. xiv 8)...Abraham lives. God is the God of the living. If now one would say: "The soul of Abraham lives with God, his body lives with the dead," it would be a distinction which to my mind is mere rot! I will dispute it. One must say: "The whole Abraham, the entire man, lives!"