37818
Well-Known Member
As a Baptist I understand it to be creation.
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What is 'natural revelation?'
- Thread starter 37818
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You would be correct, one is not saved by that one, but by special revelation of the scriptures!
Well, nature was part of creation and did not create all things. It is part of all things created. If you want to call creation 'natural' you would need to explain how and why. Then you might want to progress to the stage of telling us why we should care either way and how it is supposed to relate to anything here.
37818
Well-Known Member
You seem confused.
Just trying to get you to unconfuse your position and statements and maybe try to focus on the conversation.
A person is saved by God, not scriptures.
Abraham was justified by faith in God, long before scriptures were written and long before the Law was given (see Genesis 15:6, Galatians 3:6-18; Romans 4:1-12).
Moreover, Jesus pointed to the folly of believe that people are saving through the scriptures:
John 5:37-40 (NASB)
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. Also you do not have His word remaining in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent.
You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Everyone who is saved, is saved through Jesus (Acts 4:12). Even those who do/did not know His name, such as Abraham.And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. Also you do not have His word remaining in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent.
You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Because it is a biblical doctrine that is extremely relevant to those of us who evangelize:
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
No one asked what you feel about it. The question was what are you talking about and what exactly is this doctrine and why should anyone care? It sounds like a word salad to me. 'natural revelation'?? Explain how that is different from a hunch? A dream? A rumour? A feeling? We have the word of God so you would need to explain why you think we need this other thing?
The verse you cite simply explains how God's creation shouts out His glory and reality basically. If people get that far maybe they are ready to actually learn who He is. Watching a sunrise does not tell us how to get saved or about Jesus does it?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God saves, yes. His word is a light that leads us to Him.
My goodness, you are hostile!
I didn't tell you how I "felt" about it, I explained why it is important. This topic makes perfect sense to me, that's why I responded.
And I answered those questions. It is biblical doctrine and important for us to know when we evangelize.
Natural revelation is revelation from "nature." That is, why is there something instead of nothing? What does the world (aka, nature) tell us about God?
A hunch is also natural revelation. It we use the reasoning power of our minds, we can deduce that every material thing came from something before it. This is an enormous oversimplification, but we are left with two choices: (1) The material world is divine and eternal; or (2) The material world has come from an immaterial source, such as spirit. Since we have personhood and the created world does not seem to have personhood, we can deduce that our personhood comes from a greater Person who has created the material world. This is the first major step toward theism.
Paul thought it was important to teach, and the Spirit inspired him, but maybe you know better.
If you successfully evangelize, you likely know that many people are searching for a base of authority to make sense of the world. For a significant number of people, you have to start with the very basics to demonstrate that the Bible would be a logical way for God to communicate more explicitly with humankind than just the natural world (aka, natural revelation) that is already pointing to Him.
Exactly.
No, but it is a starting place. It prepares the heart and mind and provides hunger for more light and truth. It is an open door for someone to learn what God is doing in this world and how one can be a disciple of Jesus.
Sure, but God uses more than just scripture to call people to Himself.
OK I looked back at the start of the thread and it was started using a quote from another thread. Let's be clear here what we were talking about. The issue was science and what science claims about origins and the far universe etc.The issue was being discussed about how the laws and forces of today cannot be used to model what it was like in the past5. Why? Because we do not know nature was the same back then. Great. So the poster mentions 'natural revelation' as if this somehow proves nature was always the same. I asked how or why? Somehow we end up in this thread talking about some 'doctrine' of a church. From your definition then, it has zero to do with science and origins or what nature was like before. Aside from that aspect I do not care about some church doctrine one way or the other.
Sorry, that is no issue for me, I know how the world got here. God created it.
I agree that looking at creation should point people to at least know there is a God. As I explained, the whole thread here was a misdirection and diversion from a poster that was not able to defend his belief in science models.
OK, I would think so.
37818
Well-Known Member
God told Moses, Dueteronomy 8:3, ". . . know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. . . ." God told Isaiah, Isaiah 55:11, ". . . So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. . . ."
God gives man faith first through His word by which He spoke this creation into existance, Romans 10:17-18, ". . .
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. . . ." Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. . . ."
So what? Is there a point that relates to your claims about nature and origins in the past?
37818
Well-Known Member
God's truth being His word. The laws of nature are the word of God before God made man. It is unclear where you are having a problen with God's word before He created man. And God uses His unwritten words to give man faith. Romans 10:17-18, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. . . ." Psalms 19:4, ". . . In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, . . ."
The Holy Spirit saves thru and by the Gospel of Lord Jesus, as none will be saved apart from that message and His work!
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So the application to science here is that science only uses the nature NOW to model what the future and past were like. That may be why their models are wrong.
Your tenses seem to be wrong. The laws of nature in creation week 'were' a wonder and display of God's power and glory. The laws of nature in the future will be a wonder and display of God's power and glory. The laws of nature today are a wonder and display of God's power and glory. That does not mean the laws are the same in each time.
So the application to science here is that science only uses the nature NOW to model what the future and past were like. That may be why their models are wrong.
37818
Well-Known Member
So am I to understand that you do not believe in the immutability of the word of God? Romans 10:18.
Not even sure how there is the remotest connection. Are you suggesting His word says that heaven and the millennium and the garden of Eden, and Noah's day, and today are all the same nature? If so provide evidence, in and/or out of the bible. Good luck with that.