Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

[SovereignGrace]

Such hardline restrictivism, the logical conclusion of 'means regeneration' doctrine. Blows my mind. You people make allowances for infants and those otherwise incapacitated but won't extend the same exceptions to those who have never heard.

Still mocking the gospel I see. I put no more restrictions on how God saves than what the word says. God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe[1 Corinthians 1:21]. The gospel is the power of God to save those that believe, Jew and Gentile alike[Romans 1:16]. Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ[Romans 10:17]. It is after hearing the gospel ppl are sealed with the Holy Spirit[Ephesians 1:13]. It is through the gospel that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith[Romans 1:17]. Man isn’t zapped with faith with no word of God ever being presented to him. Paul went through great lengths to defend the gospel, being beaten with rods, stoned, whipped, shipwrecked, &c., so I guess he put restrictions on the gospel, too.

FYI, I put restrictions on no one. If I had died in infancy or in my mom’s womb, I would have been awaiting final judgment and cast into the lake of fire. I can find nowhere in the Bible where God views the souls of infants and those in the womb any differently than adults. Look at 1 Samuel 15:1-3 and Joshua 6. God told them to wipe out those who nations of ppl, even down to breast feeding babies. God views infants and babies in the womb way more differently than we do.

If they have the law written in their hearts they are regenerate, justified, Jews inwardly,.....

Great! They are saved by works of the Law, which flies in the face of grace.

 

[kyredneck]

Still mocking the gospel I see.

...still a Reformed parrot, I see.

 

[SovereignGrace]

...still a Reformed parrot, I see.

………………….

 

[37818]

. . . that no natural man can believe the gospel...

Then no natural man ever gets saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then no natural man ever gets saved.

Exactly!

 

[37818]

Exactly!

Your view makes no sense. Since those God already saved having believed the gospel are already saved, Romans 1:16.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your view makes no sense. Since those God already saved having believed the gospel are already saved, Romans 1:16.

Huh? The God uses the gospel to save the elect. It’s the means He uses to save them. No one, not even the elect, are conceived saved. All, even the elect, are conceived dead in Adam. The elect are elected UNTO salvation, not into. Huge difference.

 

[37818]

Huh? The God uses the gospel to save the elect. It’s the means He uses to save them. No one, not even the elect, are conceived saved. All, even the elect, are conceived dead in Adam. The elect are elected UNTO salvation, not into. Huge difference.

Again you are not making sense. The Greek εις is translated to, in, into, unto, on, for.

BTW, the elect do not know they are elect until after they believe. [To use the term of all the saved.]

 

[Silverhair]

No we don't. They are elect before they believe, but they are saved when they believe.
Read the quote from William Tyndale in my signature. It was written when Calvin was still in short pants.

You have them regenerated before they believe or as some calvinists say "saved so you can believe".

So I have to take it that your not calvinist since you say a person is saved when they believe. So your telling us that all those "elect" that God has picked out might not be saved. Some of those picked out will actually be damned because they might not believe.
Now if you say that all the "elect" will be saved then please explain why Christ Jesus had to go to the cross since faith in Him was not necessary for the "elect" to be saved?
Now please don't tell me I don't understand calvinism. The reason I am not a calvinist is just because I do understand calvinism and the logical outcome of that theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Such hardline restrictivism, the logical conclusion of 'means regeneration' doctrine. Blows my mind. You people make allowances for infants and those otherwise incapacitated but won't extend the same exceptions to those who have never heard.



If they have the law written in their hearts they are regenerate, justified, Jews inwardly,.....

Why make allowance for infants etc? Well God is just and He judges based on what we can know and understand Joh 15:22
Christ Jesus spoke to people and we have the written word, both of which require comprehension. Thus infants etc. are covered. And if you read Rom 1:20 you will see that all humanity is covered even those that do not hear the gospel message so they are without excuse.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have them regenerated before they believe or as some calvinists say "saved so you can believe".

So I have to take it that your not calvinist since you say a person is saved when they believe. So your telling us that all those "elect" that God has picked out might not be saved. Some of those picked out will actually be damned because they might not believe.
Now if you say that all the "elect" will be saved then please explain why Christ Jesus had to go to the cross since faith in Him was not necessary for the "elect" to be saved?
Now please don't tell me I don't understand calvinism. The reason I am not a calvinist is just because I do understand calvinism and the logical outcome of that theology.

You don't understand Calvinism. In fact, I will go further: you haven't the faintest idea what Calvinism is. More importantly, Matthew 22:29 might have been written about you.

Why don't you ask me to explain what Reformed theology is instead of making such a dog's breakfast of it?

 

[Silverhair]

They conflate election with salvation, regeneration with conversion, and they say they know Calvinism as good, or better, than we do?

Having read your signature quotes it is clear that you have a low view of God and His ability to do as He pleases. All you have done is put God in a calvinist box. You may think that is the God of the bible but you are in error. But as I have said to other calvinists "you have the right to be wrong" and that is a God given ability but for you calvinists that would be a determined one.

 

[AustinC]

Again you are not making sense. The Greek εις is translated to, in, into, unto, on, for.

BTW, the elect do not know they are elect until after they believe. [To use the term of all the saved.]

Does it matter what the elect know or don't know before their appointed time of reconciliation with God?

 

[AustinC]

Having read your signature quotes it is clear that you have a low view of God and His ability to do as He pleases. All you have done is put God in a calvinist box. You may think that is the God of the bible but you are in error. But as I have said to other calvinists "you have the right to be wrong" and that is a God given ability but for you calvinists that would be a determined one.

Sigh...
Silverhair, you put man as equal and greater than God in your means of salvation. It is impossible for you to say anyone has a lower view of God than you already have demonstrated. You declare God as subservient to the will of man. How much lower can you attempt to drag God down?

God allows you to live in your delusion of authority and "free-will" just as he allows atheists to live in their delusion of authority and free-will. You use calvinism as a crutch to prop up your own self as greater than God while you despise the observations of scripture shown you by those who observe the Bible and see that God is 100% in control of all aspects of his creation.

Go take a serious look in the mirror. Your philosophy has made you imagine you are greater than you are.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Again you are not making sense. The Greek εις is translated to, in, into, unto, on, for.

BTW, the elect do not know they are elect until after they believe. [To use the term of all the saved.]

God knows who the elect are as He chose them in Christ from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Having read your signature quotes it is clear that you have a low view of God and His ability to do as He pleases. All you have done is put God in a calvinist box. You may think that is the God of the bible but you are in error. But as I have said to other calvinists "you have the right to be wrong" and that is a God given ability but for you calvinists that would be a determined one.

#Yawn

 

[Silverhair]

Sigh...
Silverhair, you put man as equal and greater than God in your means of salvation. It is impossible for you to say anyone has a lower view of God than you already have demonstrated. You declare God as subservient to the will of man. How much lower can you attempt to drag God down?

God allows you to live in your delusion of authority and "free-will" just as he allows atheists to live in their delusion of authority and free-will. You use calvinism as a crutch to prop up your own self as greater than God while you despise the observations of scripture shown you by those who observe the Bible and see that God is 100% in control of all aspects of his creation.

Go take a serious look in the mirror. Your philosophy has made you imagine you are greater than you are.

SIGH
Austin you have been shown time and time again that what you trust in is not scripture but calvinism. You want a God that has in your words "absolute control". But then you add that this God of yours who is absolutely sovereign, which I agree with by the way, can not allow for man to have free will. Make up your mind, is He in control or is He not. Your the one that has to control the God of your own creation.

Why would you say God is subservient to the will of man? God has told man that the condition of salvation is faith in His son. Man has to be subservient to God and accept the condition He {God} has set for salvation or that man will be condemned. Sounds like man is subservient to God to me.

Yes God has given me free will and I live and worship God in it. You on the other hand have to hope that what you believe is in fact true as in your determinism you have no way of knowing for sure. So tell me who is the one that is delusional?

Austin come into the light. Let the truth of the bible show you what true faith is.

You have no control over what you think or say in regard to theology or anything else for that matter as everything is determined for you. So how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously. Your determinism is not as helpful as you seem to think.

 

[Silverhair]

#Yawn

Why do calvinists have to act so childish?

 

[Silverhair]

God knows who the elect are as He chose them in Christ from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4.

Yes those would be the same ones that hear the gospel believe the gospel and then are seal by the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13 and they come from that group that Christ Jesus was speaking about. Joh 3:16-18. See it is whoever hears the gospel and believes will be saved.
Its not saved so you will believe as the calvinists would have it. Sorry but the bible just does not support your calvinism.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Its not saved so you will believe as the calvinists would have it.

No Calvinist supposes that anyone is saved so he will believe. Possibly some Hyper-Calvinists believe it.
God opens the hearts of His people so that they will believe and be saved (Acts of the Apostles 16:14).

This has been explained to you many times, but it seems that you prefer to demolish your straw man rather than engage in meaningful discussion.

Why do you have to act so childish?