Denial of Romans 9:16!! On and on folks, falsehood after falsehood, we have seen it all before...
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Two Elections, First Corporate, Then Individual
- Thread starter Van
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You said the Word was chosen individually to BE the Lamb of God. Those are YOUR exact words, not mine. If He was chosen to BE the Lamb of God, then that means before He was chosen to BE the Lamb of God, He was not the Lamb of God before then. I’m trying to figure out what you are saying as it’s not adding up, IMO.
Subject change post after subject change post, this is all these ignorant defilers of discussion have to offer.
Did anyone say Jesus did not lay down His life as a ransom for all? Nope
Now we have the Calvinist running at full speed away from his exact words, "He [Word] has always been the Lamb of God." His denial that the Christ, the Messiah, the Redeemer, was chosen is there for all to read...
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Here is a simple answer for understanding Ephesians 1:4, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan. Subsequently of course, we were chosen individually, our conditional election by reason of God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness...
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (referring to our being individually set apart in Christ) is our individual election to salvation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (referring to our being individually set apart in Christ) is our individual election to salvation.
There is absolutely no original language reason for you to insert “corporately” into Ephesians 1:4.
That is purely self desire and NOT the Scripture
Ephesians 1:4 copied from Bible Hub.
New International Version
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
New Living Translation
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
English Standard Version
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Berean Study Bible
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
Berean Literal Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world for us to be holy and blameless before Him, in love
King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
New King James Version
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
New American Standard Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
NASB 1995
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
NASB 1977
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Amplified Bible
just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love
Not one of these translations says the election was corporate or individual. But since 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we once were not "a people" that means we were not chosen individually before we existed. Therefore, drum roll please, scripture requires that the Ephesians 1:4 election is corporate.
Utter falsehood, corporate election of Israel is basic theology, and you are so ignorant you do not comprehend it...
Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, probably referring to before creation, certainly before the Fall.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Mis information, again!
9But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLEFOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
That “ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT…” does not mean that “FEW ARE CHOSEN…” from the before time!
Your own bias is presenting a limit to the Devine attributes of God.
Did people exist prior to physical birth? Yes
Did not a person exit prior to physical birth in the womb? Yes
Prior to the womb, does not the Scripture teach that God establishes what kind of vessel that person will become? Yes
When then does a person “not a person” become a person?
According to Corporate election, God’s Divine attributes are limited to proclaim “Mine” until after procreation.
Did not a person exit prior to physical birth in the womb? Yes
Prior to the womb, does not the Scripture teach that God establishes what kind of vessel that person will become? Yes
When then does a person “not a person” become a person?
According to Corporate election, God’s Divine attributes are limited to proclaim “Mine” until after procreation.
Sheer falsehood on display, of coursed once being "not a people" chosen by God means the Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. No need to deny the obvious
More irrational nonsense after irrational nonsense. Physical people do not exist before they are created.
People do not exist before conception, and before God forms our spirit within us.
Scripture does not teach God always establishes what kind of vessel that person will become. That is just another Calvinist fiction. God has the right to make vessels for honor or common use, but that in no way teaches God does not allow us to make our choice for life or death.
Corporate election is God's choice in some cases, therefore it in no way limits God. Just another false claim from the fount of false claims, which is Calvinism.
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The passage of Romans 11 pertains to Ephesians 1.
Those who do not understand that devise schemes that limit the Divine attributes of God to fit such as corporate election.
The Ephesians just as Romans is presenting Gentile as not part of the believing Israel, and are now part of the believing Israel.
EPhesians 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and https://biblehub.com/nkjv/ephesians/1.htm#footnotesprudence, 9having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
A lack of understanding leads folks into adopting human conjured schemes devoid of foundational truths.
Among such schemes are those of corporate election. They are false.
What a load of nonsense. Agedman pretends he is incapable of comprehending that if you were chosen individually before you were created, then you were always a chosen people, and never "not a people" chosen by God.
So we get an avalanche of non-germane nonsense.
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