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Two Elections, First Corporate, Then Individual
- Thread starter Van
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2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The verse above Says;
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
It does not say God elected us and it clearly states that being chosen to Salvation:is because of sanctification and belief of the truth IOW's Faith. God has chosen to save men through Faith. Men are not chosen before faith. The reason the word elect isn't there is because it isn't an election. It's a different type of choosing.
MB
Returning to topic:
Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, probably referring to before creation, certainly before the Fall.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, probably referring to before creation, certainly before the Fall.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Returning to topic continued:
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (referring to our being individually set apart in Christ) is our individual election to salvation.
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (referring to our being individually set apart in Christ) is our individual election to salvation.
More off topic disparagement.
More hogwash claims, aimed at denying the gospel of Christ. God elected Abraham's descendants to be His chosen people, and one of His seed to bring blessings upon all families. And according to Paul, if I belong to Christ, I am an elect descendant of Abraham. MB denies Gentiles are "grafted in" to those of the promise. In other words he completely denies Galatians 3!!
You have successfully derailed your own thread. I feel honored that you'd rather insult me than mention election on your own thread. I'll pray God forgives you for your ridicule.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Your ridicule let's me know I'm not of the world.
MB
Yet another totally off topic post, but allowed.
According to Paul, if I belong to Christ, I am an elect descendant of Abraham. MB denies Gentiles are "grafted in" to those of the promise. In other words he completely denies Galatians 3!!
Returning to topic:
Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, probably referring to before creation, certainly before the Fall.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, probably referring to before creation, certainly before the Fall.
Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.
Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?
The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.
Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
Folks who teach corporate election must also hold to a god that is has diminished capacity.
There is no getting around that fact as has been demonstrated in this thread.
If God knows everything, then God knows everything including exactly the elect by name.
Such knowledge is not time constraint event , for God is not subject to time but the master and manipulator.
He knows the beginning and the end and everything in between for He is the eternal. “It is He that has made us and not we ourselves.”
There is no getting around that fact as has been demonstrated in this thread.
If God knows everything, then God knows everything including exactly the elect by name.
Such knowledge is not time constraint event , for God is not subject to time but the master and manipulator.
He knows the beginning and the end and everything in between for He is the eternal. “It is He that has made us and not we ourselves.”
I provide this scripture for all who will listen to God in His word.
Romans 2:27-29
Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Romans 3:9,20-22,28-30
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Galatians 3:7-14
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
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